Canadian Empire Challenge

[Evil Opus]

Can anyone think of a feasible way for the Canadians to have a superpower empire? I did this in response to Canada always being conquered by the US or British in ATLs.

 

[Straha]

Have jefferson even more sucessful in cutting the military and antagonizing the northerners. THe result would be michicgan, wisconsin, minnesota and OTL's pacific northwest being ceded to the british in the peace treaty with new england being under british proteciton(new england including OTL's new england states, New york, pennsylvania and new jersey). Also have the british intervene in mexico in the 1830's and get mexico north of the sierra madre and west of the rockies. The end result is a much larger canada.

 

[Max Sinister]

I invented a very different Canada for a TL that rules the Pacific including a colonial empire with Indochina, the Philippines and the Indies.

 

[Wendell]

Curtail the growth of the U.S. territorially, and this could happen.

 

[stevep]

Canadian Empire

I have an AH which has a couple of pods in 1809 in Europe. One result of this was the 1812 war is longer, continuing until 1818. Main results in North America are losses for the US. New England becomes an independent state friendly to Canada. Further west US refusal to recognise any Indian state results in the formation of the BIT (British Indian Territory). Basically Tecumseh establishes an Indian state west of Ohio state between the Great Lakes, Ohio and Mississippi rivers. Also in the south Florida - renamed Georgia after the state of Georgia and territories of Mississippi and Alabama becomes the state of Washington - becomes a British colony as a refuse for the remaining southern Indians and those freed slaves who had supported the British during the war.

Canada enters a period of development, partly because continued tension with the US means increased British support. Also control of the Great Lakes makes communications and settlement of the eastern plains region easier. The friendship of NE also helps supplying markets for goods, financial and manufacturing goods and a source of settlers. [Not enough to greatly change the population balance as both to secure the region and provide an outlet for surplus population Britain is supporting immigration to the colony.

In the US the loss of the northern states means a slavery majority and also greater agricultural power. Also British hostility to slavery helps reinforce it in the US as a point of principle. Coupled with the loss of the main anti-slavery region and the continued financial profitability of the plantations slavery revives across the south. After a period of turmoil the US seeks to expand southwards, taking a more open hand in an earlier Texan war of Independence then a decisive conquest of Mexico when that country objects to Texas joining the US.

In the 1840's a revived US makes a major bid to conquer Canada and gain revenge for its earlier defeat. Due to events elsewhere Britain is only able to supply limited support until the last year or so of the conflict. As a result the US, after initially problems mobilises large forces and conquers most of the BIT and northern Florida, which are annexed at the resultant peace. They also maker gains in the far west, moving the border north to the Snake river.

The British/Canadian forces get their revenge a generation later when they are able to commit much stronger forces against the US and decisively defeat it. Florida and the BIT are fully restored and the border confirmed as the 45th parallel to the Rockies then most of California added to Canada as
Mexico is restored in the south. [In this scenario the mounties are the Northern & Western Mounted Police!] Canada also gains Alaska - part of the reason for the war is dispute over the border after the US buys that from Russia.

A while after this the northern US states, resentful of domination by the southern agricultural interests, try to sucede, something illegal since a constitutional amendment in 1820. They are aided in the resultant short war by NE and Canadian volunteers.

In the short term you could see both the breakaway states [including Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey etc possibly down to Maryland and the NE states joining Canada.

As such the Canadian state will include much of western and northern USA, including most of the industrial area so could by 1900 be easily strong enough to start becoming the sort of superpower you want. It is still part of the British empire and probably because of the history of threat from the south probably fairly close. As such you may consider it a larger British empire. However once the centre of population/industry/political power moves to Northern America you could consider it a Canadian empire. or you could consider some change means either a political break from Britain or possibly even the conquest or serious defeat of Britain by say a continental power breaking the link.

Either way such a Canada could be a serious kick-arsh state during the 20th century and without the political isolationism traditional to the US it might well be more active. Possibly absorbing Australia and New Zealand to protect them from foreign intervention, gathering parts of Siberia as a result of clashes with or disorder in Russia. Getting involved elsewhere in the Americas due to various political or economic interests. See what you think you could do with that?

Steve

 

[Sir Isaac Brock]

Canada is the world's second biggest state! You don't call that an empire?

But if you reall want to see a bigger and more powerful Canada, you can check out my "Greater Canada" TL at https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=10810

Enjoy.

 

[stevep]

Canadian Empire

Sir Isaac

Depends on what you call an empire. Wasn't sure what the author of the thread would term Canadian or an empire for that matter.

Interesting scenario. Not sure if the degree of intervention in support of Indian affairs in US territory would be either practical or something Britain would be willing to do. Some similarities, of course, between both our scenarios but in yours the US reforms. However possibly that could be a weakness if the divisions that led to the split up are not really resolved. [I.e. if still divided between slave and free states, Catholic and Anglo-Protestant, agricultural and commercial]. Danger in real live would probably be that the US leaders would seek to paper over the divisions by unifying the state against a 'common for' which would almost certainly be Canada/Britain.

Would like to have seen the sort of greater consideration of native rights and peoples but not sure how it could go. Occurs to a degree in my scenario, not just in the BIT, but then there is a motivating force in terms of mutual support against a common threat.

Steve

 

[Sir Isaac Brock]

Sir Isaac... Interesting scenario.

Well thank you.

Not sure if the degree of intervention in support of Indian affairs in US territory would be either practical or something Britain would be willing to do.

They probably wouldn't, but I wanted to see what would have happened if they had.

 

[Xen]

What if the War of 1812 goes very wrong for the US, maybe Napoleon is killed or something in Europe and the British turn their full focus on the US. Lands north of the Ohio river are seded to the British Empire, as is the upper half of the newly aquired Louisiana territory, including what is now otl Missouri, with the all important city of St Louis becoming British.

I read also at the Hartford Convention there was discussion of returning to the crown, it had some support but probably not enough to actually acheive this. Perhaps we can have a POD earlier where the people of New England actually believe it would be better to return to the British crown than to remain part of the American Republic. So during the War of 1812, New England becomes a British Colony again, and New York city as well as upper State New York do as well.

At some point and time, yet another war between the American Republic and British Empire engulfs North America. Slavery could actually be the catalyst to this war as Slave catchers invade this greater Canada to catch run away slaves. The British once again defeat the United States, this time annexing everything north of the Potomac, perhaps even Virginia and Kentucky as well. Slavery is abolished in the rump American Republic, and the United States becomes very Jeffersonian.

Texas still becomes independent but survives as a Republic. Greater Canada pushes for more rule at home by the early 1850s, something somewhat similiar to what Canada decided upon in 1867 comes out of this convention, and the new Dominion of Canada is formed. Where do you set the capital though? Boston? Philadelphia? Toronto (York)? Montreal? New York? add insult to injury and place it in Victoria (formerly Washington DC).

 

[Darkling]

Getting a bigger BNA is rather easy (I once got all of North America back under British influence, although it took just under two centuries) but it won't necessarily become a Greater Canada, for example if Britain picked up California we are as likely to see British Pacifica or some such (including British Columbia, former Oregon and California) as we are to see a Canada including the US west coast.

 

[carlton_bach]

For a continent-spanning Empire, how about aborting the Louisiana Purchase? SAy the US a and France for some reason get into another spat and the deal is off. France was nmopt on the best of terms with the US anyway, and Haiti was a particular worry for the Southern slave states IIRC, even back then.

There may or may not be a war of 1812. Let's assume there is, and it ends in a draw as OTL. After defeating Napoleon, the British get Louisiana as spoils of victory. This creates some serious tension with the US. There is a revanchist war in the late teens on the mistaken assumption that 'we almost whipped the Limeys last time', which ends rather badly for the US despite considerable initial gains in territory. Tension keeps simmering, and of course there are still settlers building up the US, to the point where Britain is very, very nervous about the viability of her American possessions (the West never gets developed to the same degree because the Mississippi is not as open, being a border for much of its length). The US, on the other hand, are putting together an alliance securing Russian goodwill and Mexican support for their 'Rockies or Bust' move. This time they almost make it, but only almost as British diplomacy and bribery overthrow the Meaxican government and pull out the rug from under Uncle Sam's feet. Peace is sought and granted on lenient terms, mostly at the instigation of the Northeastern states suffering heavily from blockade and naval forays. Britain gets to keep Louisiana, integrated with Canada, and receives Alta California with its excellent deep-water ports in addition to Oregon. The Mississippi is neutralised and demilitarised. The US get to take their revenge on Mexico at leisure - their strategy is now oriented south, no longer northwest.

We all know what is liable to happen in California sometime soon, so the economic development of this new continental power gets a nice fillip. Take the US out of the picture with internal troubles (quite likely in a country that, instead of the unbroken chain of successes of OTL, has suffered humiliating failure) and allow the British to extract Alaska from the Russians in the Crimean War (always assuming these things still happen).

The latter half of the nieteenth century is going to be an interesting time, with Britain working hard to build up population in Canada while the US are considering whether they can risk a grab, but eventually the two sides are liable to recognise they have more to gain by trusting each other. After all, the US is about business, and they need Canadian Pacific ports for their shipping, ties into the Canadian railway networks, Canadian lumber and metals, and free navigation on the Mississippi. The Canadians need relief from disproportionate defense burdens and a quiet sleep despite the population and industrial giant to their south and east.

Copme the twentieth century, Canada receives Dominion status and independence. The motherland's parting gift are its Pacific territories, from the Sandwich Islands to Samoa, now administered from Ottawa. It has taken a century of conflict - and finally, world-spanning conflicts fought and won as allies - for the US and Canada to see eye to eye, and even today, there are many US Americans who worry about the industrial development of Canada's west coast. Steel mills in Oregon and Lakota and factories in California are competition for the established Eastern manufacturers, anmd many highly skilled young workers are already tempted to move there by sunny climes and high wages. Canada's dominance of the Pacific, on the other hand, is no longer a policy issue after the twentieth century has shown that the two nations work best in defense synergies - US ships defending the Atlantic sea lanes and controlling the Caribbean approaches to the Panama canal, Canadian ones controlling the Pacific and bringing war to the Eastern enemy.