Canada buys Mirage 4000

[Admiral Beez]

If Canada had bought the Mirage 4000 as a replacement for its CF-101, CF-104 and CF-116 would this have been sufficient to save the program from cancellation?

I have to think the Mirage 4000 would have been nearly the ideal long range interceptor for Canada's 1980-onwards NORAD role, plus sufficient for the NATO/UN strike role.

Certainly the 138 units for Canada wouldn't keep the factory open for long, but this would give Dassault the chance to promote the aircraft to other markets. So, if Canada takes on the aircraft what other markets might consider it?

Of interest is the large internal fuel load, with the first composite tail containing fuel. One wonders if that would cause to be a weak or problematic part of the design.

http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/1799/pics/21_o_1.jpg

 

[Riain]

If Canada bought some then perhaps the Mirage 2000N 'long range' nuclear strike aircraft wouldn't see the light of day. The much larger 4000 with longer range and heavier weapons load would have been more suitable for the nuclear role and if the ADA bought 75 like they did with 2000N then the production run would be 213, which might be enough to get the ball rolling.

 

[Just Leo]

If Canada had bought the Mirage 4000
Of interest is the large internal fuel load, with the first composite tail containing fuel. One wonders if that would cause to be a weak or problematic part of the design.

The E-E Lightning also stored fuel in the vertical tail, an act of desperation, without problem.

Had Dassault offered the Mirage 4000, instead of F.1 and Mirage 2000, they would have been head to head against F-14 and F-15, both rejected for budgetary reasons. Was there any reason to believe the Mirage 4000 was a bargain?

 

[Admiral Beez]

The E-E Lightning also stored fuel in the vertical tail, an act of desperation, without problem.

Had Dassault offered the Mirage 4000, instead of F.1 and Mirage 2000, they would have been head to head against F-14 and F-15, both rejected for budgetary reasons. Was there any reason to believe the Mirage 4000 was a bargain?

AIUI, the Mirage 4000 was essentially a twin-engine 2000, so there's likely less high tech and more current tech. I don't think Canada ever looked at the F-14 due to its twin-seat requirement. How did cost compare for the F-16 vs. Mirage 2000, both single-seat multi-role fighters?

 

[Just Leo]

AIUI, the Mirage 4000 was essentially a twin-engine 2000, so there's likely less high tech and more current tech. I don't think Canada ever looked at the F-14 due to its twin-seat requirement. How did cost compare for the F-16 vs. Mirage 2000, both single-seat multi-role fighters?

The Mirage 4000 was essentially a twin-engined Mirage 2000, but completely different and bigger and more expensive. We don't know how much more expensive, but we could ask the AdA, which selected the 2000.

The F-14 was on the selection list. The CF-100 and CF-101 were two-seaters, and 40 two-seater CF-18s were ordered.

The cost factor was only the significant factor in the decision of CF-18 over F-15, in which case, not enough F-15s would have been ordered to fill perceived needs. Certainly, the purchase decision parameters were contrary to AH.com methodology, but that was the DoD for ya. The Mirage 2000, having been withdrawn, didn't come in for final scrutiny. Why was it withdrawn? Maybe foresight. Why wasn't the Mirage 4000 offered? IDK. I only had hopes for one Canadian Minister of Defense in all ministerial history, and he went to a German strip club, and was fired.

 

[La Rouge Beret]

The Mirage 4000 was essentially a twin-engined Mirage 2000, but completely different and bigger and more expensive. We don't know how much more expensive, but we could ask the AdA, which selected the 2000.

The F-14 was on the selection list. The CF-100 and CF-101 were two-seaters, and 40 two-seater CF-18s were ordered.

The cost factor was only the significant factor in the decision of CF-18 over F-15, in which case, not enough F-15s would have been ordered to fill perceived needs. Certainly, the purchase decision parameters were contrary to AH.com methodology, but that was the DoD for ya. The Mirage 2000, having been withdrawn, didn't come in for final scrutiny. Why was it withdrawn? Maybe foresight. Why wasn't the Mirage 4000 offered? IDK. I only had hopes for one Canadian Minister of Defense in all ministerial history, and he went to a German strip club, and was fired.

Who was the Canadian Minister of Defense in question and why would visiting an adult entertainment venue be grounds for removal?

 

[Just Leo]

Who was the Canadian Minister of Defense in question and why would visiting an adult entertainment venue be grounds for removal?

Barney Danson, and who knows. I don't really understand gummint. I know they don't fire you for being an idiot or a crook, but sometimes, they fire you for getting caught.

 

[Archibald]

The 4000 was one hell of a fighter. Its raw power even surprised seasonned test pilots like Jean Marie Saget.
During a flight test he was to hit mach 1.8 at 50 000 ft and ended over Mach 2 at 60 000 ft.

The core issue with the 4000 was the same that doomed Northrop F-20 Tigershark: no order from the parent government air force.

The Armée de l'Air just couldn't afford the 4000 - a decade later the smaller Rafale had to replace all combat aircrafts plus the Aeronavale.

There were talk however of an experimental squadron with 5 Mirage 4000 - but I wonder who would have paid the bill.

Iraq wanted the 4000 very badly but they had no money because of the war against Iran. So instead they bought the best Mirage F1s in the world.

Saudi Arabia very nearly happened in 1988 but they went with the Tornado F3 instead.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

I don't know if its true, but I always regarded the Mirage 2000 as analogous to the F-16 and Mirage 4000 as analogous to the F-18. Therefore the nations that were potential customers were nations like Canada, Australia and Spain which bought the F-18 IOTL.

I think the last two would be more likely to buy Mirage 4000 in preference to the Hornet because both had operated the Mirage III and Spain the Mirage F-1.

I also half-remember from reading a Salamander book in the 1980s that Saudi Arabia was paying for the Mirage 4000's development. But if that is true I don't understand why the tried to buy more F-15s and when the USA refused to sell them they bought Tornadoes.

If a major stumbling block to that is that the AdA didn't buy it, how about it buying a small number to replace the Mirage IV. Would that be enough?

 

[Crowbar Six]

The Mirage 4000 was considered a "Heavy" in the same class as the F 15C or Tornado, most of the potential customers were going to be countries with F4 fleets that needed a long range fighter and/or strike aircraft and were in the market for a Phantom replacement. Most of the viable customers were countries like Japan who went with the F 15J, Saudi who bought both the F15C and Tornado F3 and Israel who were politically unacceptable as a client.

If it had been available earlier in the decade it might have soaked up some F4 sales if it had been cheap and capable enough, plus a sufficiently hefty bribe might have seen it being bought by Saudi in place of the Tornado ADV, no doubt the Shah might have been interested as a cheaper alternative to the F14 or as a supplement for the F4E then in service. However by the time of its first flight it was just too late to compete with the already established F15.

 

[Archibald]

You're right, the 2000 is F-16 class while the 4000 matched the F-15 and F-14s.

From memory: When Saudi Arabia bought the F-15 Israel got very, very pissed off and asked his american ally to limit sales of the F-15s.

Saudi Arabia shall not buy more than 60 F-15s - that was the deal.

That's the reason why in the early 80's Saudi Arabia sought different interceptors - which was either the Tornado F3 or the Mirage 4000. That's the moment when they funded the 4000 - which doesn't mean they would buy it, unfortunately.
Because France did not bought the 4000 they went with the Tornado F3, of which the RAF had bought 165.

Performance-wise the Tornado F3 was a piece of junk when compared to the 4000. Which is hardly surprising - VG wing is heavy, the RB-199 lack power and are optimized for low altitude. That's what happens when you tried to change a strike aircraft into an interceptor - ask the F-111.
Even the 2000s outclass them - the Tornados have hard time flying over 40 000 ft.

Later the "Israeli restriction" was lifted and Saudi Arabia was allowed to buy more and more F-15s.

how about it buying a small number to replace the Mirage IV. Would that be enough?

The trouble was that only 62 mirage IV had been build, and it was a different era. The AdA was all for it, but unfortunately France had no money for a Mirage IV specialized successor. The main strategic deterrent had gone to long range ballistic missiles on submarine and plateau d'Albion. It was cheaper to clung the ASMP on smaller aircrafts like the 2000 or Super Etendard, although they lacked the range. Nuclear strike from aircrafts was considered a secondary mission and as such couldn't be used to justify a nuclear bomber Mirage 4000.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

The trouble was that only 62 mirage IV had been build, and it was a different era. The AdA was all for it, but unfortunately France had no money for a Mirage IV specialized successor. The main strategic deterrent had gone to long range ballistic missiles on submarine and plateau d'Albion. It was cheaper to clung the ASMP on smaller aircrafts like the 2000 or Super Etendard, although they lacked the range. Nuclear strike from aircrafts was considered a secondary mission and as such couldn't be used to justify a nuclear bomber Mirage 4000.

I presume that if France had been richer it would have bought the Mirage G.8A/ACF for the AdA instead of the Mirage 2000. There would have been no Mirage 4000 and the 2000 would only have been built for export.

 

[Crowbar Six]

On the other hand the F3 was pretty quick on the deck, the only thing nearly as fast at the time was the MiG 23. During one NATO exercise a formation of F3's jumped a force of B1B over the North Sea and whacked the lot, the B1's were just not fast enough to get away no matter what they tried.

Once they got AMRAAM and the datalink fully integrated it was a very nasty combination as a full on interceptor.

 

[Archibald]

I presume that if France had been richer it would have bought the Mirage G.8A/ACF for the AdA instead of the Mirage 2000. There would have been no Mirage 4000 and the 2000 would only have been built for export.

Indeed that was the plan as of 1974-75, an ACF force with a handful of Mirage F1M53 as the lower end. When the F1M53 lost the deal of the century in June 1975 the plan went by the window. The ACF was too expensive and was scrapped in December 1975, with the unfinished prototype scrapped.

In fact the pivotal date was December 18, 1975 - exactly 40 years ago. Marcel Dassault went to the Elysée to discuss with President Giscard d'Estaing. Cancelation of the ACF was decided but Dassault already had the 2000 and 4000 on the drawing board. Dassault proposed the 4000 for the Armée de l'Air and the 2000 for export. Giscard reversed the proposal, leaving the 4000 for export markets were it was too expensive.

 

[Kurt_Steiner]

What would had happen if Dassault had got his way?

 

[Archibald]

The AdA would have been very happy but really couldn't pull it off from a budget point of view.

Incidentally, after following and reading that link
I'm glad we never sold Mirage 4000 to Saudi Arabia. I've counted 16 Tornados and 27 F-15s ending as smoking holes in the ground. What a waste. The RSAF is really a piece of junk under western life support.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

What would had happen if Dassault had got his way?

I suspect a much smaller AdA because the Mirage F.8A and 4000 were too expensive for a one-to-one substitution of the Mirage 2000.

IIRC from reading Jane's All the World's Aircraft from the middle 1970s 200 Mirage G.8A/ACF were planned, but according to my copy of the Observers Book of Aircraft 1981 there was a requirement for 400 Mirage 2000s in 3 main versions. Unfortunately it did not say what the versions were or how many of each were planned. Though in the end I think the total number of Mirage 2000s built for the AdA was about 300. Therefore the number of Mirage F.8A or Mirage 4000 that might have been built in its place might have been around 150.


According to my copy of the World Combat Aircraft Directory edited by Norman Polmar the AdA had 21 tactical fighter squadrons in its Tactical Ai Command, 9 fighter interceptor squadrons in its Air Defence Command and 9 bomber squadrons in its Strategic Air Command in the middle of the 1970s.

The 21 TFS in FATAC consisted of 17 fighter-bomber squadrons (4 Super Sabre, 3 Jaguar, 8 Mirage IIIE, 2 Mirage 5F), 3 Mirage IIR/RD recce squadrons and one Mirage IIIB/BE training squadron.

The 9 FIS in CAFDA consisted of 3 Mirage IIIC, 3 Mirage F-1 and 3 Super Mystere squadrons.

Most of the FATAC and CAFDA squadron had 15 aircraft each for a total front-line fighter force of 450 aircraft.

All 9 bomber squadrons in COFAS had 4 Mirage IVA for a total front-line bomber force of 36 aircraft.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

According to The Air Forces of the World by William Green & John Fricker published in 1958 the AdA had was to have had 60 fighter squadrons in 1960, but that was not going to be achieved due to the cost of the Vietnamese and Algerian Wars. At that time it had a strength of some 40 fighter squadrons and by the middle 1970s it had declined to 30 squadrons. IIRC the French Government had to cut back on conventional forces to pay for the nuclear deterrent.

If somehow there is a richer France or the French Government was prepared to support a larger tactical air force might there be a significant decrease in the unit cost of the Mirage F.8A or Mirage 4000 through economies of scale?

I.e. if they wanted 800 would the unit cost be significantly less than a production run of 200? It would also help Dassault-Breguet when competing with the F-14 and F-15 for export sales.

 

[Archibald]

I do know that before 1991 the Armée de l'Air staff was obsessed with a number: 450 combat aircrafts, or burst. That included obsolete types like the Mirage IIIs that couldn't even fight Gulf War I...

 

[riggerrob]

Barney Danson, and who knows. I don't really understand gummint. I know they don't fire you for being an idiot or a crook, but sometimes, they fire you for getting caught.

...........................................................

Barney Danson was not very good at delegation. Soldiers would cheerfully have drank that bar dry! Shortly after I was posted to the Royal Canadian Dragoons (CFB Lahr, West Germany) the boys took me out drinking in that bar. I do not remember strippers, but it was drunk out and I was dark before staggering into that infamous bar.
Sadly, there is a huge gap between Canadian soldiers and Canadian politicians. Canadian soldiers do not trust officers who will not drink with them, while Canadian voters do not trust officers who drink with the boys.

Similarly, a Canadian Admiral was recently cashiered for looking a pornography while off-duty. OTOH Canadian sailors only trust officers who have a healthy curiosity about the opposite sex.

On a more serious note, the Canadian Air Force would only have bough Mirages if they could sub-contract some of production to the Canadair factory in Montreal because during the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s, Canadian defence spending was all about buying votes in Quebec.
There were plenty of precedents with Canadair building CT-133 trainers and CF-104 fighters under license from Lockheed, CF-5 fighter-trainers under license from Northrup, Britannia transports under license from Bristol, etc. When I toured the Canadair factory ( during the 1970s), they were building CF-5s under license from Northrup, sub-contracting wing components for Dassault Metcure airliners and wing roots for swing-wing fighters. I forget when the wing roots were sub-contracted from Grumman or NAA.
Even when the CAF bought CF-18 fighters, a huge part of the deal was over-hauls done by Canadair.

Bottom line, Canadian pilots are always priority last when buying airplanes because Canadian politicians love back-room arms deals that are rarely disclosed to Canadian voters.