Can WW1 be avoided?

I get what you're saying Kalamona, but the problem would come from FF, as he wanted nothing less than a rewrite of the Hungarian constitution to enable universal male suffrage in Hungary, which would remove the power of the nobility, the only class that had the vote at the time, and empower the poor and ethnic minorities; it was literally a fighting issue for the Hungarians, so if and when FF forces it, which he fully intended to do when he assumed the throne, in fact planning to refuse to accept the Hungarian crown until the constitution was rewritten, then there will be war, because the nobility would be out of power, which was the one thing they valued. They cannot compromise, as there is no middle ground, its capitulate or fight.

Yeah, those were his intetntions. However, this could be described as changeing one devil for another. Let me clarify a little bit:
If he presses for changing the constitution for universal male suffrage, he could have it quite easily. Simply put, the hungarina nobility - especially the magnates, great landowners - could not do against it anything. Without imperial authority, they were powerless. Even if they trying to start a rebellion, a real armed rebellion, they would found themselves alone. A smaller harvester strike would pale it in comparison.
And they knew it... just check out the darabont-govenrment, they cried a lot and made a big noise, but nothing else.

On the other hand, if FF make his move, he change the comfortable conservative-reactionary power in hungary to an SDP/agrarian/liberal conservative one. Who would been grateful for the moment, but they had a big list of demands. For the record, most of those are against the magnates and industrialists, and they are already thrown under the bus, but still... no more governing in the old ways, by the will and grace of God.

Would been quite interesting.
But: no civil war, over this. Even if the magnates try it, they would have zero support. Just think about it, it could - and rightfully so - be interpreted as back to the 48s laws!
 

Cryostorm

Monthly Donor
Wouldn't a good way to delay the war be for most of the great powers to realize how weak (or at least exceptionally fragile) Russia truly is at this particular point in time, especially Russia and France but also Germany. Part of the reason WWI turned out the way it did is that everyone vastly overestimated the strength of the Russian military and the state that supported it (despite the various wars that should have shown otherwise). This overestimation caused several things to happen.

1) Serbia thought it could stand up to Austria with Russia at its back.

2) Russia believed it could easily defeat Austria and maybe Germany.

3) France believed its alliance with Russia would result in a crushing victory against Germany.

4) Germany believed that it had to quickly defeat France before the "mighty" Russian army arrived.

If you have Russia going through some internal turmoil, early revolution or unrest, or have somebody with influence in the major continental powers point out and have accepted that Russia might not be the great power everyone believes it is then WWI may pass over the "Serbian Crisis of 1914" until Russia gets its house in order at which point everything changes with the way European politics were so volatile at the time.
 
Wouldn't a good way to delay the war be for most of the great powers to realize how weak (or at least exceptionally fragile) Russia truly is at this particular point in time, especially Russia and France but also Germany. Part of the reason WWI turned out the way it did is that everyone vastly overestimated the strength of the Russian military and the state that supported it (despite the various wars that should have shown otherwise).

IIRC, the German military elite believed that they had to attack Russia now (in 1914) because once Russia modernizes its army and transport, a project scheduled to be done by 1917, it's going to be close to unbeatable. So a perception of (temporary) Russian weakness actually contributed to starting WWI.
 
Until either nukes are invented or the European countries get much more friendly with each other? Or is that ASB? And with no WW1 what would the world look like today?

An Austro-Serbian war at some point in the first two decades of the 20th Century seems practically inevitable. If you can see no way for the Entente to accept such a conflict, or no way for Germany to allow Russia to tee off on Austria, then it gets tough to see how the war could be avoided.
 
Here is a chain of events from Wikipedia. If accurate it seemed that several events could have occurred to prevent the conflict from widening.

June 28, 1914: Serbian irredentists assassinate Archduke Franz Ferdinand of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
June 28–29: Anti-Serb pogrom in Sarajevo
July 23: Austria-Hungary, following their own secret enquiry, sends an ultimatum to Serbia, containing several very severe demands. In particular, they gave only forty-eight hours to comply. Whilst both Great Britain and Russia sympathised with many of the demands, both agreed the timescale was far too short. Both nevertheless advised Serbia to comply.
July 24: Germany officially declares support for Austria's position.
July 24: Sir Edward Grey, speaking for the British government, asks that Germany, France, Italy and Great Britain, "who had no direct interests in Serbia, should act together for the sake of peace simultaneously."[31]
July 25: The Serbian government replies to Austria, and agrees to most of the demands. However, certain demands brought into question her survival as an independent nation. On these points they asked that the Hague Tribunal arbitrate.
July 25: Russia enters a period preparatory to war and mobilization begins on all frontiers. Government decides on a partial mobilization in principle to begin on July 29.
July 25: Serbia mobilizes its army; responds to Austro-Hungarian démarche with less than full acceptance; Austria-Hungary breaks diplomatic relations with Serbia.
July 26: Serbia reservists accidentally violate Austro-Hungarian border at Temes-Kubin.[32]
July 26: Russia having agreed to stand aside whilst others conferred, a meeting is organised to take place between ambassadors from Great Britain, Germany, Italy and France to discuss the crisis. Germany declines the invitation.
July 27: Sir Edward Grey meets the German ambassador independently. A telegram to Berlin after the meeting states, "Other issues might be raised that would supersede the dispute between Austria and Serbia ... as long as Germany would work to keep peace I would keep closely in touch."
July 28: Austria-Hungary, having failed to accept Serbia's response of the 25th, declares war on Serbia. Mobilisation against Serbia begins.
July 29: Russian general mobilization is ordered, and then changed to partial mobilization.
July 29: Sir Edward Grey appeals to Germany to intervene to maintain peace.
July 29: The British Ambassador in Berlin, Sir Edward Goschen, is informed by the German Chancellor that Germany is contemplating war with France, and furthermore, wishes to send its army through Belgium. He tries to secure Britain's neutrality in such an action.
July 30: Russian general mobilization is reordered at 5:00 P.M.
July 31: Austrian general mobilization is ordered.
July 31: Germany enters a period preparatory to war.
July 31: Germany sends an ultimatum to Russia, demanding that they halt military preparations within twelve hours.
July 31: Both France and Germany are asked by Britain to declare their support for the ongoing neutrality of Belgium. France agrees to this. Germany does not respond.
July 31: Gemany asks France, whether it would stay neutral in case of a war Germany vs. Russia
August 1 (3 A.M.): King George V of Great Britain personally telegraphs Tsar Nicholas II of Russia.
August 1: French general mobilization is ordered.
August 1: German general mobilization is ordered.
August 1: Germany declares war against Russia.
August 1: The Tsar responds to the king's telegram, stating, "I would gladly have accepted your proposals had not the German ambassador this afternoon presented a note to my Government declaring war."
August 2: Germany and The Ottoman Empire sign a secret treaty[33] entrenching the Ottoman-German Alliance.
August 3: Germany, after France declines (See Note) its demand to remain neutral,[34] declares war on France. Germany states to Belgium that she would "treat her as an enemy" if she did not allow free passage of German troops across her lands.
August 3: Britain, expecting German naval attack on the northern French coast, states that Britain would give "... all the protection in its powers."
August 4: Germany implements the Alfred von Schlieffen Plan (modified).
August 4 (midnight): Having failed to receive notice from Germany assuring the neutrality of Belgium, Britain declares war on Germany.
August 6: Austria-Hungary declares war on Russia.
August 23: Japan, honouring the Anglo-Japanese Alliance, declares war on Germany.
August 25: Japan declares war on Austria-Hungary.
Note: French Prime Minister Rene Viviani merely replied to the German ultimatum that, "France will act in accordance with her interests."[34] Had the French agreed to remain neutral, the German Ambassador was authorized to ask the French to temporarily surrender the Fortresses of Toul and Verdun as a guarantee of neutrality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_World_War_I#Austrian_Empire_and_Austria-Hungary
 
IIRC, the German military elite believed that they had to attack Russia now (in 1914) because once Russia modernizes its army and transport, a project scheduled to be done by 1917, it's going to be close to unbeatable. So a perception of (temporary) Russian weakness actually contributed to starting WWI.

The Saverne Affair shows that the military faction in German politics could be given a black eye by more pacifistic factions. If WWI as we know it is averted by a surviving Franz Ferdinand, perhaps enough time would allow the pacifists to weaken the militaristic faction further.

An Austro-Serbian war at some point in the first two decades of the 20th Century seems practically inevitable. If you can see no way for the Entente to accept such a conflict, or no way for Germany to allow Russia to tee off on Austria, then it gets tough to see how the war could be avoided.

If Austro-Serbian tensions could be solved diplomatically, that'd help enormously. Or maybe that Serbia is so unreasonable (in even Russia's eyes) that it gets no backup.
 
Until either nukes are invented or the European countries get much more friendly with each other?

I believe so. There were trends toward a Great War:

  • German militarism.
  • The Anglo-German naval race.
  • French revanchism over Alsace-Lorraine.
  • Lots of pretty uniforms and martial fantasies in pop culture.
But there were also very strong trends against war.

The nations of Europe were becoming prosperous democracies, which basically had no reason to fight each other.

The business class was becoming politically dominant, and businessmen were generally turning against war, especially modern "total war".

That kind of war costs huge amounts of money (they pay lots of taxes) and breaks stuff (they own lots of stuff).

Look at the previous hundred years (since 1815) compared to the hundred years before that. See how often the Great Powers went to war with each other. During the entire period of 1815-1914, there were only seven wars between European powers (including Turkey). Three of them ended after one or two battles; one was fought with small forces by nations that had no mutual borders; two were between Russia and Turkey, the most backward nations (with neither country's heartland touched). Only the Franco-Prussian War compared to the Great Power wars of the 1700s.

By 1914, there is a very strong inertia against going to war in almost every country. The partial exceptions are the countries where power is in the hands of a monarchical clique or militarist cabal, which could initiate war without broad popular consensus. These were Germany, Austria, Turkey, and Russia. The governments of these countries were not really answerable to the people yet; but even there a declaration of war had become a very dangerous step.

200 years earlier, there was a declared war with Britain and France against Spain, which many history books don't even mention (the
War of the Quadruple Alliance).

In 1914, certain of the warmongers succeeded in provoking the conflict they wanted (primarily Austria and Germany).

If there was no 1914 crisis, the possibility of war would become more and more remote.

Or is that ASB?

No.

And with no WW1 what would the world look like today?

Extremely hard to say. It's possible there would never be a Great War of any kind. No Bolshevik Revolution, no Communist or Fascist states, no arms races or Cold Wars. Which IMO means the world today would be much much wealthier. OTOH, because history would avoid the great ills we know of, doesn't mean history would not encounter other great ills.

Russia was potentially ready for a revolutionary convulsion, and Nicholas was not the man to head it off. Austria-Hungary was a political jury-rig, ready to fall apart at the death of Franz Joseph. Germany needed constitutional reform, but Kaiser Wilhelm would accept none, and he lived till 194o; something could burst.

Still, all of these were domestic problems, and not likely to start international troubles, or bring more warlike regimes to power.

China was already breaking down. Some of the trends that led Japan into militarist insanity had had already started. But neither trend was IMO driven to go as bad as OTL, without OTL circumstances deriving in substantial part from WW I.
 

BooNZ

Banned
By 1914, there is a very strong inertia against going to war in almost every country. The partial exceptions are the countries where power is in the hands of a monarchical clique or militarist cabal, which could initiate war without broad popular consensus. These were Germany, Austria, Turkey, and Russia. The governments of these countries were not really answerable to the people yet; but even there a declaration of war had become a very dangerous step.

In respect of Germany, Wilhelm's love of uniform, pageantry and the occasional/regular dumb speech should not be confused with a desire for war.

In respect of Austria, there was a distinct lack of traction by Conrad in his frequent suggestion of pre-emptive wars.

In respect of Turkey, they were recently subject to wars of aggression from Italy, Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria. Painting them as an aggressor is a bit harsh.

In respect of Russia, it managed to facilitate the creation of a cancerous Serbian state, near the heart of A-H. Serbia was clearly militaristic with a record of atrocities during the Balkans wars (ie before WWI). It was heavily armed and financed by both France and Russia...

If there was no 1914 crisis, the possibility of war would become more and more remote.

I don't disagree - especially if Serbia is somehow benched.
 
Each nation had its hawks and doves.

Though for Serbia, to give them credit they did accept all but 2 of the twenty one demands by A-H, of which they did not accept the two that would directly impede their national sovereignty.
 
I don't disagree - especially if Serbia is somehow benched.

Not gonna happen - Austria would eventually make war upon Serbia since the Serbian military was out of control (much like Japan's in the 1930's), and the Entente would inevitably use that fact to confront Germany directly. The only real way around the problem was for the British to start laying down the law with the Russians, but under Grey, fat chance of that.
 
Though for Serbia, to give them credit they did accept all but 2 of the twenty one demands by A-H, of which they did not accept the two that would directly impede their national sovereignty.

I think you're confusing this with Japan's 21 demands of China in 1915.
 
Not gonna happen - Austria would eventually make war upon Serbia since the Serbian military was out of control (much like Japan's in the 1930's), and the Entente would inevitably use that fact to confront Germany directly. The only real way around the problem was for the British to start laying down the law with the Russians, but under Grey, fat chance of that.

IIRC Serbian activities were dying down in Bosnia by the time of FF's assassination (which was a bit of a fluke in itself), so given a few years I doubt there would be any cause for war, as Serbia will probably realise it needs A-H as a trading partner to survive and dial down its antagonism. Obviously there would still be some animosity but it wouldn't really come to anything.
 
The Saverne Affair shows that the military faction in German politics could be given a black eye by more pacifistic factions. If WWI as we know it is averted by a surviving Franz Ferdinand, perhaps enough time would allow the pacifists to weaken the militaristic faction further.

How much could the German pacifists sideline the militarists by the time of, say, the Ausgleich renegotiations in 1917?
If Austro-Serbian tensions could be solved diplomatically, that'd help enormously. Or maybe that Serbia is so unreasonable (in even Russia's eyes) that it gets no backup.

No matter how tactfully and harmlessly the Serbian government is willing to behave, there will still be a risk of incidents like Sarajevo as long as Colonel Dragutin Dimitrijevic Apis with his Black Hand remains active and independent of the government.

Austria-Hungary itself also made a lot of moves which contributed to the tensions and fueled extremism among Serbs inside both countries, such as dissolving the cultural autonomy of its Serbian minority in 1912. If they tried a different overall policy, Apis would have had much fewer willing accomplices for his schemes.
 
IIRC Serbian activities were dying down in Bosnia by the time of FF's assassination (which was a bit of a fluke in itself), so given a few years I doubt there would be any cause for war, as Serbia will probably realise it needs A-H as a trading partner to survive and dial down its antagonism. Obviously there would still be some animosity but it wouldn't really come to anything.

Serbia wanted large chunks of Austrian territory and the Serbian government seemed unable or unwilling to curb the type of wreckless nationalism that had led to Sarajevo. Any dying down of activities was probably more related to temporary factors than indicative of longer terms Serbian behaviour. Unless the Entente was willing to abandon Serbia, it's hard to see how things could emerge without a there being a war at some point.
 
Austria-Hungary itself also made a lot of moves which contributed to the tensions and fueled extremism among Serbs inside both countries, such as dissolving the cultural autonomy of its Serbian minority in 1912. If they tried a different overall policy, Apis would have had much fewer willing accomplices for his schemes.

But it wasn't Apis that armed Princip's group, it was Tankosic and Ciganovic. Maybe these men conspired with Apis before doing so, maybe they didn't. In any event, it was the territorial dispute over Bosnia that was fueling Serbian revisionism, and in that matter practically all of Serbia considered that the wrong country owned Bosnia. Since there was no chance Austria would turn Bosnia-Herzegovina over peacefully, that left only one option - war.
 
But it wasn't Apis that armed Princip's group, it was Tankosic and Ciganovic. Maybe these men conspired with Apis before doing so, maybe they didn't.

Vojislav Tankosic was one of the founding members of the Black Hand. Even if he wasn't exactly taking orders from Apis, they were certainly working together most of the time. And Ciganovic was just a simple railway worker who got his part of the job done, not a decision-maker.
In any event, it was the territorial dispute over Bosnia that was fueling Serbian revisionism, and in that matter practically all of Serbia considered that the wrong country owned Bosnia. Since there was no chance Austria would turn Bosnia-Herzegovina over peacefully, that left only one option - war.

Yes, though the irredentism covered all Serbian regions, Bosnia was just the focal point. And the Serbian government, much as it would have liked to magically double its territory, knew better than to attack or intentionally provoke Vienna, while many in A-H's government were practically looking for an excuse to go to war.
 

Sabot Cat

Banned
I think you'd need either a POD before 1900 or a visit from Alien Space Bats.

Nonsense; it was completely avoidable. Here are several Point of Divergences:

I. Czar Nicholas II stands firm against his military officers to not mobilize the Russian forces.
II. Kaiser Wilhelm II stands firm against his military officers to not mobilize to the Western front (as Moltke stated that they couldn't possibly do so because it would be a logistically impossibility). The bought time helps to reduce tensions between Germany and Russia.
III. Kaiser Wilhelm II agrees with Czar Nicholas II to submit the July crisis to the Hague for a peaceful yet decisive resolution.

Finally, if war between Russia and Germany breaks out on the Eastern front, I don't think France and the United Kingdom would get involved. A majority of the French national government were self-proclaimed socialists, who are unlikely to throw their constituents in a war helping a backwards imperialist power fighting over scraps of land in the Balkans. Even in our own timeline, pacifists were threatening to organize a general strike against war with Germany, and I don't think the Sacred Union would form absent an invasion. And if there is no western front, there's no violation of the neutrality of Belgium or any British interests in the matter. Kaiser Wilhelm II simply fell for Moltke's sunk cost fallacy and misread the French political situation when he invaded; these are not historically pre-determined mistakes.
 
WELP.

I got the TL bug. I've picked up several books on the subject and will tap out the TL premise in a week or so. Right now I'm somewhat stuck on calling it "A Year Late and a War Short" or "A Day Late and an Archduke Short".
 
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