Can we avoid the southern "lost cause" mythology?

I've been skimming through the net, and thinking about the Civil War in the USA. I was wondering what it would take to avoid the glorification of the confederacy, with a POD AFTER Lincoln's murder. (Booth escaping, or getting taken alive, are both after, so could be part of it.)
 
A harsher but more productive Reconstruction might help. Particularly if they, as the song suggests, hang Jeff Davis from a sour apple tree. The traitors are burned into the popular memory much more than OTL
 
Radical reconstruction splits up the wealthy people's lands to both freemen and poor whites. Most white people a generation later then sympathize with the Union, not the Confederacy.
 
Probably something that breaks the South demographically from each other to the point that there is no concept of Southern Culture or Southern voting blocs.

Maybe an earlier end to segregation which results in widespread intermarriages between whites and blacks by the mid 1900s, moderately greater economic growth in the South East by the mid 1900s (which would be helped by segregation), much greater immigration, and earlier elimination of tropical disease to open the area to immigration and investment.
 
A harsher but more productive Reconstruction might help. Particularly if they, as the song suggests, hang Jeff Davis from a sour apple tree. The traitors are burned into the popular memory much more than OTL

No. That makes martyrs of them, increases bitterness, drives it underground, and probably creates eventual CSA terrorist organizations going into the 21st century similar to the IRA. Basically, this is the underlying flaw with behind most arguments on these forums here.

Possiblities--

1) Get Confederates who were anti lost cause, like Longstreet, E. Porter Alexander, eventually Forrest (at end his life he was making speeches on behalf of black civil rights) to speak out faster or sooner before their names were blackened by lost cause mythology advocates like Early and Gordon. Most of all, have Lee speak out before he dies.

2) Have a war in about 1870 (Spain, Canada, Mexico could be targets) put ex Confederates not in top positions but important positions, making southerners feel American sooner and making Northeners see Southerners as comrades sooner (and yes, that is part of the problem and part of why option one didn't happen more). Have the legend of the Lost Cause be drowned out by the legend of how Forrest and Sheridan took Winnepeg.

Basically, make Southerners not feel like or be seen as second class Americans faster, even at the cost of making Canadians or Cubans second class Americans instead.
 
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A harsher but more productive Reconstruction might help. Particularly if they, as the song suggests, hang Jeff Davis from a sour apple tree. The traitors are burned into the popular memory much more than OTL

But burned into it in precisely the wrong way. Davis' image on Stone Mountain would now be even bigger than Lee's.

We hanged any number of Irish rebels, but somehow it never made the next generation any less rebellious.

I really don't see how it can be done with a PoD later than abt 1862.
 
Im not american and thus im not sure I understand this matters rightly. However to me it seems that those who call for a stronger reconstruction think that the Confederacy was all about slavery and keeping the slaves. And for some rich people and much of the elit it certainly was. However the majority of the people who served as soldiers of the confederacy was not a rich slave owner. They felt different enough from the northerners and thought of themselfs as a different people - enough so to fight a long and bloody war to gain their independence. Their leaders were slavers and thats true but without popular support they couldnt have fought for years. And I dont believe - though I cant prove - that they fought so the rich can keep their slaves. I dont say that the common white man of the south werent racist or anything. But I seriously doubt that they, who never had slaves were thinking back on the "good old days" because the rich than had slaves.
 
Part of the problem here is that the War was fought primarily to preserve the Union - the ending of slavery being a happy side-effect. Once it became clear that the Southern elites had accepted the Union, the political will to keep Reconstruction going (especially the expense involved) was always going to erode. Eventually the Democrats were going to re-take the House (they managed it in 1874), and the funds for the project dried up.

Basically, you need one of two things: (1) a much stronger abolitionist movement in the North, or (2) large-scale land redistribution somehow becomes a necessary means to defeating the South.
 
Im not american and thus im not sure I understand this matters rightly. However to me it seems that those who call for a stronger reconstruction think that the Confederacy was all about slavery and keeping the slaves. And for some rich people and much of the elit it certainly was. However the majority of the people who served as soldiers of the confederacy was not a rich slave owner. They felt different enough from the northerners and thought of themselfs as a different people - enough so to fight a long and bloody war to gain their independence. Their leaders were slavers and thats true but without popular support they couldnt have fought for years. And I dont believe - though I cant prove - that they fought so the rich can keep their slaves. I dont say that the common white man of the south werent racist or anything. But I seriously doubt that they, who never had slaves were thinking back on the "good old days" because the rich than had slaves.

Ugh.

The Confederacy was indeed all about slavery and keeping the slaves. Check out the various secession ordinances: they make it very clear what the secession was about. As for the soldiers themselves - doesn't really matter what their opinions were. A WWII German soldier who doesn't want to exterminate the Jewish people is still fighting for a regime that wants to exterminate all Jewish people.
 
1) Get Confederates who were anti lost cause, like Longstreet, E. Porter Alexander, eventually Forrest (at end his life he was making speeches on behalf of black civil rights) to speak out faster or sooner before their names were blackened by lost cause mythology advocates like Early and Gordon. Most of all, have Lee speak out before he dies.
This right here. The "Lost Cause" myth was created in a number of books written after the war. Many of these books glorified Lee. If Lee was to speak and write more publicly, maybe write some memoirs, along with other ex-Confederates denouncing the cause and advocating acceptance of the result, this would have a massive effect on public opinion.
 
Ugh.

The Confederacy was indeed all about slavery and keeping the slaves. Check out the various secession ordinances: they make it very clear what the secession was about. As for the soldiers themselves - doesn't really matter what their opinions were. A WWII German soldier who doesn't want to exterminate the Jewish people is still fighting for a regime that wants to exterminate all Jewish people.

No, he is not. He is fighting for his homeland. That said homeland is led by a bunch of evil lunatics that distorted it to be the most evil country in history doesnt change the fact for him that its his homeland - even if he isnt a nazi.

And back to the confederacy: the soldiers were fighting for their home and independence. The secession ordinances etc were drawn up by the elit who really cared about slavery. But if it was all about slavery why were the ordinary joe's of the south without any slaves fighting in the war?
 
No, he is not. He is fighting for his homeland. That said homeland is led by a bunch of evil lunatics that distorted it to be the most evil country in history doesnt change the fact for him that its his homeland - even if he isnt a nazi.

"Homeland" is an abstraction. If he's in the German army in the Second World War, he is fighting for the war aims of Herr Hitler - and is fighting because of the ambitions of Herr Hitler.

And back to the confederacy: the soldiers were fighting for their home and independence. The secession ordinances etc were drawn up by the elit who really cared about slavery. But if it was all about slavery why were the ordinary joe's of the south without any slaves fighting in the war?

They were fighting because they supported the elites, or because the elites forced them to. Either way, they were fighting for the continuation of slavery.
 
Im not american and thus im not sure I understand this matters rightly. However to me it seems that those who call for a stronger reconstruction think that the Confederacy was all about slavery and keeping the slaves. And for some rich people and much of the elit it certainly was. However the majority of the people who served as soldiers of the confederacy was not a rich slave owner. They felt different enough from the northerners and thought of themselfs as a different people - enough so to fight a long and bloody war to gain their independence. Their leaders were slavers and thats true but without popular support they couldnt have fought for years. And I dont believe - though I cant prove - that they fought so the rich can keep their slaves. I dont say that the common white man of the south werent racist or anything. But I seriously doubt that they, who never had slaves were thinking back on the "good old days" because the rich than had slaves.

One third of all Southern White families owned slaves which means most White Southerners either owned slaves or had friends or more distant family members who owned slaves. They might well fight because their friends and family who do keep going on about how the Yankees are stealing from them so fight to back their friends and kin who do own slaves. Also it allowed Poor Whites to look down on someone. If slaves are freed there is no one below them and so they are "pulled down". Many Southern Politicians used that.
 
Oh should of mentioned this earlier, it would probably help if Birth of a Nation and Gone With the Wind were never made.
 
Oh should of mentioned this earlier, it would probably help if Birth of a Nation and Gone With the Wind were never made.

The work to prevent lost cause mythology needed to be done in the 1860s and 70s. These were the fruits rather than the symptoms.

Other idea, pension Confederate soliders. This provides gratitude, improves the economy of the south etc. At the same time, make it revocable upon participation in organizations like the KKK. Don't interfere with veterans groups or cemeteries. Treat them respectfully. But if people loose their pensions for lynching, they'll behave better.
 
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Skallagrim

Banned
Do the exact opposite of what all the revenge-fantasy fueled little psychopaths typically suggest, and instead focus hard on shaping a historical narrative of forgiveness, unity and 'moving forward together'. A sense must be fostered that the attempt to leave the Union was mistake, something to be a bit ashamed about, but that this doesn't reflect on the people involved... as long as they commit to "re-union". DO NOT try to "punish" people, as that only creates hostility, but persuade the Southern leaders (with any incentive you have) to publically and vocally embrace the Union. Make their recommitment to the Union be the historical legacy they stress in their own accounts, instead of glorifying their "Lost Cause".

Everybody likes a dramatic tale about brothers falling out, but what everybody loves most is the tearful reconciliation that awaits at the end. Make that the narrative. do not seek to punish one brother, but embrace him again without reservations. That, and only that, can ensure that he himself wishes to forget that he ever rose against his kin.
 
The work to prevent lost cause mythology needed to be done in the 1860s and 70s. These were the fruits rather than the symptoms.
I know, I have examples higher, but these films played a major role in it's continuance and expansion. These films don't just glorify the Confederacy for the South, but they do so for the entire country and as a result play a major role in legitimizing the Lost Cause in the eyes of white America.
 
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