Can the Ottomans turn into a Colonial Power?

Elfwine was thinking of "what if we get Sunni Iran and a questionably orthodox Sunnism in the Ottoman Empire", which could also cause nasty problems.

This, thanks for wording it better.

Something where the Ottomans remain the kinda-sorta heterodox take on Sunni that they were when they were still ghazi borderers, as opposing to entrenching their position on being more orthodox than thou.
 
Space Oddity: Makes sense, although it really seems kind of . . .

odd. I suppose it made sense to them, but it doesn't translate well.

Well, let me put it this way, Elfwine. You're thinking about the position the wrong way--the Caliph was, by this time, closer to the "King of Jerusalem" than the Pope--a position of some prestige, both religiously and secularly, yes, but really, more of an honorific than anything practical.
 
Well, let me put it this way, Elfwine. You're thinking about the position the wrong way--the Caliph was, by this time, closer to the "King of Jerusalem" than the Pope--a position of some prestige, both religiously and secularly, yes, but really, more of an honorific than anything practical.

True. But the de jure authority of the title seems to have mattered - or at least been perceived as mattering.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Well, let me put it this way, Elfwine. You're thinking about the position the wrong way--the Caliph was, by this time, closer to the "King of Jerusalem" than the Pope--a position of some prestige, both religiously and secularly, yes, but really, more of an honorific than anything practical.
The Khilafat Movement in India would suggest otherwise. Though it is true the Sultan's declaration (as Caliph) of Holy War on the Entente was a massive flop, there are rather clear signs that the disappearance of a Caliph had some serious effects in the Sunni World.
 
The Khilafat Movement in India would suggest otherwise. Though it is true the Sultan's declaration (as Caliph) of Holy War on the Entente was a massive flop, there are rather clear signs that the disappearance of a Caliph had some serious effects in the Sunni World.

The Caliphate's (nostalgic) position in the early 20th century--after a century of the Ottomans trying to make it important again and a lot of Pan-Islamist movements, I'll add--does not equate to its position in the 16th century. Frankly, it took the title vanishing to get people really caring about it again...
 
The Caliphate's (nostalgic) position in the early 20th century--after a century of the Ottomans trying to make it important again and a lot of Pan-Islamist movements, I'll add--does not equate to its position in the 16th century. Frankly, it took the title vanishing to get people really caring about it again...

Well, a question comes to mind.

If the title wasn't that big a deal, why use it to shore up the Ottoman position as God's Favorite Family?
 
Why were there half-a-dozen families in Europe at this time claiming to be 'King of Jerusalem'? Even if the practical authority of a title is virtually nil, it can still have a certain amount of prestige.
 
Why were there half-a-dozen families in Europe at this time claiming to be 'King of Jerusalem'? Even if the practical authority of a title is virtually nil, it can still have a certain amount of prestige.

Oh sure. But I'm trying to fathom how this:

Because Suleyman I thought it would help shore up the dynasty. As opposed to many of their rivals, the house of Osman lacked a definitive conqueror/founder to point to and say 'God likes us, and you can see it right from the start!'

And this:

Well, let me put it this way, Elfwine. You're thinking about the position the wrong way--the Caliph was, by this time, closer to the "King of Jerusalem" than the Pope--a position of some prestige, both religiously and secularly, yes, but really, more of an honorific than anything practical.

go together.

What am I missing?
 
Oh sure. But I'm trying to fathom how this:



And this:



go together.

What am I missing?

The first statement is how Suleyman viewed taking the title, while the latter was more descriptive of how it actually was. Issue here, is the title is very symbolic. After all, the Mughals declared themselves Caliph as well. A Sunni Iran might do the same thing, but frankly, that three kingdom rivalry will remain the same, as the Mughal-Safavid rivalry wasn't all that driven by religion, while Persia in the end will still eye the same regions as OTL. I doubt it would hold much influence outside of maybe Central Asia, and even there, religion didn't matter much.
 
The first statement is how Suleyman viewed taking the title, while the latter was more descriptive of how it actually was. Issue here, is the title is very symbolic. After all, the Mughals declared themselves Caliph as well. A Sunni Iran might do the same thing, but frankly, that three kingdom rivalry will remain the same, as the Mughal-Safavid rivalry wasn't all that driven by religion, while Persia in the end will still eye the same regions as OTL. I doubt it would hold much influence outside of maybe Central Asia, and even there, religion didn't matter much.

Gotcha.

It not even meaning much to the other Ottoman sultans (to use the title they're generally known by) surprises me, but maybe that's just my ignorance speaking.
 
Gotcha.

It not even meaning much to the other Ottoman sultans (to use the title they're generally known by) surprises me, but maybe that's just my ignorance speaking.
Well, technically Sultan denotes higher authority than Caliph over civil law IIRC. And frankly, the Ottomans did manage to control the majority of Muslim areas outside of Central and South Asia...and the South Asians generally conceded supremacy to the Mughal court, so in many ways, the Ottomans never really needed to rely on the title til much later. And by that time, with the Mughals gone, they were pretty much the only Caliphs left, and really the only powerful Muslim state left in the game, which is why by the 18th or 19th century, it carried much more gravity.
 
The whole idea of declaring yourself Caliph seems to be more of a court exercise, in order to gain leverage over the ulema, and shore up the Muslims within the country, rather than export your authority over all of them.
 
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