Can the Norse-Gaels Survive? Can They Dominate?

Dirk

Banned
So as I see it, the Norse-Gaels, despite having integrated somewhat culturally with the native Irish and Scottish populations, still composed of the ruling class in some parts of Ireland and in most of northern and western Scotland. With the Normans invading England and then influencing the Davidian Revolution in Scotland, the King of Scotland became much stronger and cultural and political hegemony were sought; the Norse-Gaels not being in easily defended lands like the Scottish Highlanders dwelled in, they were subsumed by the Scots and the Irish, and then by the Anglo-Normans in Ireland.

Yes?

So is there a POD (the non-existence of David, or no Norman Invasion, or perhaps something even earlier) which could continue the Norse-Gaels' existence, or perhaps even cause them to thrive?
 

No. Norse-Gaels, as you said, were totally integrated into the local models and would have become undistinguishable from their neighbours at some point.
In fact, more powerful they would be (and assuming they had an interest controlling the hinterland), more important and quick this assimilation would be : think of Normans (this assimilation being typical of Norse and Varangian settlements).

Regarding the cultural hegemony part : no. A thousands times no. Identity in Middle Ages wasn't about linguistics, or race, but about religion and dynastic features. As long both of these were the same than their neighbours, it was considered the same.
They were so crushed by Davidian Revolution that Norse-Gaels issued nobility still ruled Irish Sea Scottish coasts at least up to the XIIth. Or, by exemple, the Isles up to the XVIth.

That they went undistinguishable from their neighbours isn't due to a political scheme from Scottish kings but is the usual behavior of creolized Norse settlement elsewhere.

So is there a POD (the non-existence of David, or no Norman Invasion, or perhaps something even earlier) which could continue the Norse-Gaels' existence, or perhaps even cause them to thrive?
For aforementioned reason, it's gonna be hard.

In Ireland, Norse-Gaels kingdoms never really were interested on controlling the hinterland, being more of maritime kingdoms more focused on Irish Sea than Ireland.
I suppose that no Brian Boru and a continuing U Neill high kingship could give more room and critically more time to Norse-Gael kingdoms in southern Ireland, but I don't see them reaching hegemony and eventually not being integrated politically by Irish kings.

For Scotland, it may be more doable : if you screw Scotland hard enough, a continued Norwegian overlordship on scottish islands and coast may allow the maintenance of a Norse-Gael population as much different from Highlands that Lowlands are.
 
For Scotland, it may be more doable : if you screw Scotland hard enough, a continued Norwegian overlordship on scottish islands and coast may allow the maintenance of a Norse-Gael population as much different from Highlands that Lowlands are.
Only if the Norwegians are prepared to pour in manpower. The moment Scotland has a navy a la Somerled its greater population gives it the advantage. Once that happens the only way the Norse-Gael can maintain their identity will be to have Scandavian allies. If not then they are just a load of poor farmers and fishermen who can be conquered one island at a time.
 
I mostly agree : it's why I precised that Scotland should be screwed deeply enough.
If we have something comparable to pre-Davidian Revolution, akin to gaelic or brythonic high-kingship, it should be enough for preventing the rise of strong Scotland or even strong scottish entities (well, strong enough to take on Isles, that is).

But even with a viable Scotland, Norse-Gaels prooved historically that they could live on on their own long enough : XIIth century for most lordships even with a fledging Norwegian support.
 
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