Can the Jin and Xia defeat Genghis?

Maoistic

Banned
The Jin and Xia dynasties are among the very first conquests of Genghis Khan. Can they defeat him and prevent Genghis from annexing them? Or is this an outright historical impossibility?
 
The Jin and Xia dynasties are among the very first conquests of Genghis Khan. Can they defeat him and prevent Genghis from annexing them? Or is this an outright historical impossibility?

Actually, their conquest was much closer to "impossibility" or at least to a very low probability because it involved too much of what constitutes "military genius". :cool:
 
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Kaze

Banned
In 1205, the Mongols began their first invasion of the Western Xia, pillaging and burning many outlying villages and cities - this was ordered by Genghis himself and some of the looting was done by Genghis himself.
An alliance with the Jin could be in the works - if it not sabotaged by the coup against Emperor Huanzong either never happened or failed.
(In real world - Huanzong was overthrown by his cousin - an allay of the Mongols and began attacking the Jin once he was enthroned.)
If the coup failed, the Western Xia - Jin alliance in theory could continue.
Yet there is another possibility in the first sentence "In 1205, the Mongols began their first invasion of the Western Xia, pillaging and burning many outlying villages and cities - this was ordered by Genghis himself and some of the looting was done by Genghis himself" - Genghis could in theory be killed in one of these raids setting back the Mongols for decades.
 
No, they seem already in decline before Temujin born, its very difficult to retain military capability once you rule settled populace, cultural distance between frontier and capital will rise within few generations, and old military skill would be forgotten.

and UNITED Mongolia is more powerful than both Jin and Xia. Chinese Empire need to divide steppe tribes to gain victory.

So Jin and Xia "victory" is more likely caused by internal steppe politics than winning in battle.
 
I think you'd need Genghis not being a military genius in the first place for that... or get rid of him soon enough. For the latter, check out the Chaos TL. - Although it might help if the Jin and Xia were militarily stronger.
 
Genghis gets hit by a stay arrow in one of the early raids and dies. That should help a lot. Jin and Xia still face a HUGE threat but without Genghis, the Mongols might fracture.
 
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