Can the Habsburgs take Spain during War of Spanish Succession?

So, a bit of background first, in this timeline, there was no glorious revolution, James II and Mary of Modena died in 1687, and Mary II ascended the throne, she then died in 1694, Anne currently sits the throne and has four survivin children. They are Mary (b.1685), Anne Sophia (b.1686) James (b.1687) and William (b. 1689)

After some talk with some of the other users on the board, it was decided that Mary would be best suited to marrying Charles of Austria, thus making her the potential Queen of Spain, should Charles succeed.

So, my query is this, can the Austrians with British and other allied support take Spain completely for Charles? I know that in otl, Philip of Anjou had a fair bit of support in Castile, whilst Charles held Aragon. Assuming if you will that Joseph does not die and also doesn't contract syphillis and therefore has a chance of having kids, what are the chances Charles can take Spain completely? And with him being married to Mary, how much more effort would Britain put into ensuring he succeeds?
 
So, a bit of background first, in this timeline, there was no glorious revolution, James II and Mary of Modena died in 1687, and Mary II ascended the throne, she then died in 1694, Anne currently sits the throne and has four survivin children. They are Mary (b.1685), Anne Sophia (b.1686) James (b.1687) and William (b. 1689)

After some talk with some of the other users on the board, it was decided that Mary would be best suited to marrying Charles of Austria, thus making her the potential Queen of Spain, should Charles succeed.

So, my query is this, can the Austrians with British and other allied support take Spain completely for Charles? I know that in otl, Philip of Anjou had a fair bit of support in Castile, whilst Charles held Aragon. Assuming if you will that Joseph does not die and also doesn't contract syphillis and therefore has a chance of having kids, what are the chances Charles can take Spain completely? And with him being married to Mary, how much more effort would Britain put into ensuring he succeeds?

An heretic Queen would not be that popular in Spain, and a British princess converting to catholicism would be controversial to say the least.

On a larger scale, if Mary of Cumberland is promised to Archduke Charles, that could only come from a diplomatic appeasement between the Stuarts and the Habsburgs. Louis XIV may have had an ego problem, but he was no fool. He certainly would have work against it, maybe by offering some compensation to Charles.
 
An heretic Queen would not be that popular in Spain, and a British princess converting to catholicism would be controversial to say the least.

On a larger scale, if Mary of Cumberland is promised to Archduke Charles, that could only come from a diplomatic appeasement between the Stuarts and the Habsburgs. Louis XIV may have had an ego problem, but he was no fool. He certainly would have work against it, maybe by offering some compensation to Charles.

Hmm interesting, and this is true re the controversy, though it had happened before had it not with Princess Henrietta who married the Duke of Orleans?

And this is very true re Louis, though given his desire for French control in Spain, what would he have offered to Charles instead?
 
Hmm interesting, and this is true re the controversy, though it had happened before had it not with Princess Henrietta who married the Duke of Orleans?

And this is very true re Louis, though given his desire for French control in Spain, what would he have offered to Charles instead?

Henrietta was brought up Catholic, so it was not a full conversion. Also, no Popish Plot and Exclusion crisis in 1661.

I am not sure Louis really did want control of Spain. He signed all three partitions treaties in order to get Italian territories rather than Spain itself. It was the Austrian side who refused the treaties. ITTL, he could let Charles have Spain+Netherlands, Italy going to "neutral", only to get Lorraine and a piece of Savoy.
 
Henrietta was brought up Catholic, so it was not a full conversion. Also, no Popish Plot and Exclusion crisis in 1661.

I am not sure Louis really did want control of Spain. He signed all three partitions treaties in order to get Italian territories rather than Spain itself. It was the Austrian side who refused the treaties. ITTL, he could let Charles have Spain+Netherlands, Italy going to "neutral", only to get Lorraine and a piece of Savoy.

Sorry re your first point, with regards to popish plot and the exclusion crisis, are they exmaples of the controversy that would come from Mary amrrying a catholic?

Oh that's quite interesting, and would be quite different to how he processed things otl
 
Just looking through the articles on the war, would Louis avoid doing the things he did otl, such as moving in on the Netherlands, pushing for french traders to get supremacy etc? Even if Mary and Charles are potentially married to one another? I'm not sure he would.
 
An heretic Queen would not be that popular in Spain, and a British princess converting to catholicism would be controversial to say the least.

I'm not sure an Anglican would have posed the same problem as a Protestant from say, Brunswick. Elisabeth Christine was born Protestant, and converted, and IIRC the Spaniards/Catalans had no real problem with her (at least on religious grounds). Not to mention that there was a match touted between Baltasar Carlos and Princess Mary (Charles I's daughter) but it never moved from paper AFAIK.

As to Mary converting, it'll make waves in England, and there'll be whispers of papists coming to kill all good Englishmen in their beds, but, 1) parliament won't allow it without strings attached (complete and utter renunciation of her rights and those of her papist descendants, for one; probably won't let her out the country before her eldest brother at least is wed to a good Protestant wife; etc); 2) the English will be happy her husband isn't French, so the Catholic marriage might be less of an issue than if she were wedding say, the duc de Bourgogne or Anjou - not to mention, if Josef is already married by the time of Karl and Mary's match, especially with a kid (or more) then the possibility of England becoming part of the HRE is lessened, and they only have to worry about Spain. And once Mary's sisters-in-law start producing heirs, Mary moves away from the throne.

Personally, I would think Parliament would try and further weight the scales and prevent an English union with Spain/HRE by offering Anna Sophia rather than Mary. She's younger, but there are three heartbeats ahead of her, instead of two. Or if James II and Mary of Modena are still alive, maybe even TTL's La Consolatrice
 
I'm not sure an Anglican would have posed the same problem as a Protestant from say, Brunswick. Elisabeth Christine was born Protestant, and converted, and IIRC the Spaniards/Catalans had no real problem with her (at least on religious grounds). Not to mention that there was a match touted between Baltasar Carlos and Princess Mary (Charles I's daughter) but it never moved from paper AFAIK.

As to Mary converting, it'll make waves in England, and there'll be whispers of papists coming to kill all good Englishmen in their beds, but, 1) parliament won't allow it without strings attached (complete and utter renunciation of her rights and those of her papist descendants, for one; probably won't let her out the country before her eldest brother at least is wed to a good Protestant wife; etc); 2) the English will be happy her husband isn't French, so the Catholic marriage might be less of an issue than if she were wedding say, the duc de Bourgogne or Anjou - not to mention, if Josef is already married by the time of Karl and Mary's match, especially with a kid (or more) then the possibility of England becoming part of the HRE is lessened, and they only have to worry about Spain. And once Mary's sisters-in-law start producing heirs, Mary moves away from the throne.

Personally, I would think Parliament would try and further weight the scales and prevent an English union with Spain/HRE by offering Anna Sophia rather than Mary. She's younger, but there are three heartbeats ahead of her, instead of two. Or if James II and Mary of Modena are still alive, maybe even TTL's La Consolatrice

Interesting, well in this timeline, James II and Mary of Modena would've died in early 1687, so, yeah I can see it being Anne Sophia. And with there being no glorious revolution or bill of rights or act of settlement, I think you're right Anne Sophia seems more likely than Mary. And with the Prince of Wales marrying Ulrika Eleonora of Sweden, that could make things better?
 
Sorry re your first point, with regards to popish plot and the exclusion crisis, are they exmaples of the controversy that would come from Mary amrrying a catholic?

Oh that's quite interesting, and would be quite different to how he processed things otl

The Popish Plot and the Exclusion Crisis happened between Henrietta's marriage and your PoD. It serves as an indication of the sensibility of a marriage of a british princess with a popist.
 
The Popish Plot and the Exclusion Crisis happened between Henrietta's marriage and your PoD. It serves as an indication of the sensibility of a marriage of a british princess with a popist.

This is true, though would the issue be so high if the marriage was between a Princess and a Catholic Prince?
 
Any other thoughts?

I could see Britain fighting for Spain to retain the Southern Netherlands rather than it being passed to the Austrian branch. Rather it being ruled by a nephew to the king of England than a foreign emperor in Vienna.

Of course, to get Spain to keep the Netherlands, she'll have to give up something else. Not to mention that Britain would want trading rights in the Spanish empire as part of the marriage contract.
 
I could see Britain fighting for Spain to retain the Southern Netherlands rather than it being passed to the Austrian branch. Rather it being ruled by a nephew to the king of England than a foreign emperor in Vienna.

Of course, to get Spain to keep the Netherlands, she'll have to give up something else. Not to mention that Britain would want trading rights in the Spanish empire as part of the marriage contract.

Hmm, possibly giving up the Italian possessions?
 
Hmm, possibly giving up the Italian possessions?

Well, they did THAT OTL. But that was where France got Spain. Here, France is gonna need to be compensated somewhere. Most likely place being either the Low Countries (which Britain won't want) or Italy (which Austria wouldn't want). Louis XIV's an egotist, but he's an egotist ruling the most powerful nation in western Europe, he's not gonna roll over and play dead just because his cousin in Vienna says so. He wants SOME cherries from the Spanish orchard. Preferably Flemish. But Italian will work
 
Well, they did THAT OTL. But that was where France got Spain. Here, France is gonna need to be compensated somewhere. Most likely place being either the Low Countries (which Britain won't want) or Italy (which Austria wouldn't want). Louis XIV's an egotist, but he's an egotist ruling the most powerful nation in western Europe, he's not gonna roll over and play dead just because his cousin in Vienna says so. He wants SOME cherries from the Spanish orchard. Preferably Flemish. But Italian will work

This is very true, which could lead to the reverse situation of otl, where Charles wages war to regain those territories.

But is it actually possible for him to get Castile?
 
So, a bit of background first, in this timeline, there was no glorious revolution, James II and Mary of Modena died in 1687, and Mary II ascended the throne, she then died in 1694, Anne currently sits the throne and has four survivin children. They are Mary (b.1685), Anne Sophia (b.1686) James (b.1687) and William (b. 1689)

After some talk with some of the other users on the board, it was decided that Mary would be best suited to marrying Charles of Austria, thus making her the potential Queen of Spain, should Charles succeed.

So, my query is this, can the Austrians with British and other allied support take Spain completely for Charles? I know that in otl, Philip of Anjou had a fair bit of support in Castile, whilst Charles held Aragon. Assuming if you will that Joseph does not die and also doesn't contract syphillis and therefore has a chance of having kids, what are the chances Charles can take Spain completely? And with him being married to Mary, how much more effort would Britain put into ensuring he succeeds?


You missed shoehorning two butterflies into this, but I'm not going to bring them up. :winkytongue:

I'm not so sure the Brits are going to help a daughter's husband take Spain. Now, they might 'accidentally' prevent support from arriving via water, but they're not going to put a lot of effort into it. It's not worth the effort of money and troops. (Okay, they might lend Charles some cash.....but troops? Nope.)
 
You missed shoehorning two butterflies into this, but I'm not going to bring them up. :winkytongue:

I'm not so sure the Brits are going to help a daughter's husband take Spain. Now, they might 'accidentally' prevent support from arriving via water, but they're not going to put a lot of effort into it. It's not worth the effort of money and troops. (Okay, they might lend Charles some cash.....but troops? Nope.)

OPh what butterflies are those?

And hmm interesting, they did provide ground troops otl during Anne's reign, when there was no connection other than an alliance, so why would they not provide troops here?
 
OPh what butterflies are those?

And hmm interesting, they did provide ground troops otl during Anne's reign, when there was no connection other than an alliance, so why would they not provide troops here?

I told you, I'm not bringing them up....you put in quite enough.

As to the second question......I made a mistake, wrong intervention. (Put THAT on your calendar, V!)
 
I told you, I'm not bringing them up....you put in quite enough.

As to the second question......I made a mistake, wrong intervention. (Put THAT on your calendar, V!)

Ahaha, couldn't hurt to ask. Though is this related to a pod in 1687~?

And ah fair aha
 

Philip

Donor
England's primary goal is to keep the Spanish Netherlands and Spanish colonies out of France's hands. England will fight doggedly to achieve this as she considers it essential to her survival.

I would not look at the marriage as England's attempt to put her daughter's husband on the throne of France. Rather, it the marriage is England's promise to the Habsburgs the she will support their claims precisely because those claims achieve England's aims.
 
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