Can the emperors and the khans become friends?

Perhaps a stronger Tang China (no An Lushan rebellion?) forms an alliance on equal grounds with the Uighurs against either the Tibetans or maybe a more belligerent Abbasid Empire?

The An Shi Rebellion could be averted, but other generals not under the government's direct control will continue to maintain significant influence within far-flung regions, making it difficult to prevent a major uprising for long. For example, Li Zhengji (Yi Jeong-gi), a general of Goguryeo descent, managed to govern most of Shandong with over 100,000 troops, many of whom were also of Goguryeo descent, and took advantage of the chaos caused by An Lushan by technically proclaiming his own dynasty, which was tacitly acknowledged by the court in Chang'an. Although he remained subordinate to the Tang, his successors continued to remain autonomous for decades afterward.

Culturally, if you want cultural ties between states on the steppe and the Chinese, I think it would be easier for the Mongols/Uighurs/Gokturks/Xiongnu/Xianbei to adopt Confucianism than for the Chinese to adopt steppe practices. Granted, Confucianism arose in a cultural milieu quite different from the steppe environment, but the same can be said for Buddhism, which was accepted.

Buddhism tended to be combined with other beliefs, such as shamanism. Although Confucianism was also promoted within China in conjunction with Legalism as well, it tended to be more rigid in regards to general policies due to close ties with Chinese culture, meaning that it was easier to rearrange Buddhist ideology in order to fit each region/state.

Nomads and Sedentary civilization having good relationship and founding united state is hard. However there was attempt to create coherent nomadic-sedentary state.
One example is Balhea. If I remember correct Balhea was not genuine sedentary state. It was combination of Gogorye founded by Gogorye general who allied itself with Jurchen/Mohe/Malgal nomad tribes. I don't know how demographic structure was, but it should be fairly equal between nomads and Gogorye people. It functioned as fairly stable state.
Another attempt is Liao Dynasty. The Empire was founded by Nomadic Khitan people. After conquest of Northern China, first Emperor of Liao tried to establish stable Nomadic-Chinese Empire.

From wikipedia.

In that sense, Goguryeo was also a nomadic-sedentary state, as it frequently allied with Xianbei and Mohe (Malgal) tribes as well, as Chinese and Korean records both state that the latter two frequently participated with the former during conflicts within the peninsula and against the Sui and Tang. However, both Balhae and Goguryeo were limited to Southern Manchuria and the Northern Korean Peninsula, so it would be difficult to adopt their models to a state containing significant Chinese and nomadic populations.

The Liao provided a reasonable model for governance, but its policies would also probably be difficult to implement within a state with a much larger territory and population.
 
Nomads adopted Chinese culture in order to legitimize rule over their Han Chinese subjects. It is hard to adopt Chinese culture without such need.
For example, Northern Yuan. After their were driven out by Chinese proper no Chinese culture left in Mongolia.
Problem here is Nomads always think they are equal or superior to Han Chinese from time of Xiongnu to Northern Yuan. So becoming vassal is out of question.
Except for the case of the Rourans, which I mentioned, who did adopt a Chinese custom like era names. Or the Kara Khitai, who held to many Chinese customs (though of course not all) even when they formed an exile state far away from China. There are exceptions, and what I'm proposing is an offshoot of those exceptions.

I'm always very curious why people think Nomads were eager to accept inferior status. It frustrates me why people often underestimate the Nomads/Mongols while choosing Chinese as some superior force.
Just plain NON_SENSE.
Because there were times when the nomads were weak and the Chinese were much stronger? In referring to Tang times in particular. Peace is not going to be permanent, but it could still be long-lasting.

The An Shi Rebellion could be averted, but other generals not under the government's direct control will continue to maintain significant influence within far-flung regions, making it difficult to prevent a major uprising for long. For example, Li Zhengji (Yi Jeong-gi), a general of Goguryeo descent, managed to govern most of Shandong with over 100,000 troops, many of whom were also of Goguryeo descent, and took advantage of the chaos caused by An Lushan by technically proclaiming his own dynasty, which was tacitly acknowledged by the court in Chang'an. Although he remained subordinate to the Tang, his successors continued to remain autonomous for decades afterward.
I don't see how this would ever happen in a world without the An Lushan rebellion.

Buddhism tended to be combined with other beliefs, such as shamanism. Although Confucianism was also promoted within China in conjunction with Legalism as well, it tended to be more rigid in regards to general policies due to close ties with Chinese culture, meaning that it was easier to rearrange Buddhist ideology in order to fit each region/state.
I don't see why nomads couldn't adopt Confucianism and assimilate it in their own way though. Outside of China, Confucianism was never imposed in some manner by an imperial court.
 

Nihao

Banned
I don't see how this would ever happen in a world without the An Lushan rebellion.

The foreign generals held too much power within their governing territory, and the government didn't even tried to supervise them, while in the meantime the court were too corrupt too pull out any reforms, so only the failing of the Rebellion didn't mean that there would be no chance for another Rebellion to happen.

I don't see why nomads couldn't adopt Confucianism and assimilate it in their own way though. Outside of China, Confucianism was never imposed in some manner by an imperial court.

The Confucian thought were at some point xenophobic, there was a saying in Chinese: "非我族類,其心必異。" (Those who are not in the same tribe must be hard to co-operate.), which came from The Commentary of Zuo, an Chinese history book written in the Spring and Autumn era by a Confucian scholar. So, I think that won't be easy to spread the words of Confucius unless changing a little of it in order to appeal the Nomads, but I don't think the scholars will like it so much.
 
In that sense, Goguryeo was also a nomadic-sedentary state, as it frequently allied with Xianbei and Mohe (Malgal) tribes as well, as Chinese and Korean records both state that the latter two frequently participated with the former during conflicts within the peninsula and against the Sui and Tang. However, both Balhae and Goguryeo were limited to Southern Manchuria and the Northern Korean Peninsula, so it would be difficult to adopt their models to a state containing significant Chinese and nomadic populations.

I totally disagree. Balhae and Goguryeo was very different entity.
As I understand Goguryeo was founded by Jumong from Buyeo. Buyeo was already sedentary civilization which economy was based on cultivating agriculture. Allying with some nomadic tribe doesn't translate to becoming semi-nomadic state.
OTOH, Balhea was joint project of Goguryeo remnant and Jurchen Nomads. And if I'm not wrong Jurchen's still were nomads well into 1500's.

The Liao provided a reasonable model for governance, but its policies would also probably be difficult to implement within a state with a much larger territory and population.
Agree, with larger Chinese territory and population this might be hard to achieve stable dual-governing system. But Mongol Empire and Yuan Dynasty had dual-system with huge Chinese population and territory.

Because there were times when the nomads were weak and the Chinese were much stronger?
I don't understand meaning of this.... :rolleyes:
 
I totally disagree. Balhae and Goguryeo was very different entity.
As I understand Goguryeo was founded by Jumong from Buyeo. Buyeo was already sedentary civilization which economy was based on cultivating agriculture. Allying with some nomadic tribe doesn't translate to becoming semi-nomadic state.
OTOH, Balhea was joint project of Goguryeo remnant and Jurchen Nomads. And if I'm not wrong Jurchen's still were nomads well into 1500's.

Goguryeo split off from Buyeo due to ideological issues, and the former's location within mostly inhospitable terrain forced it to raid its neighbors, causing it to gradually build up a relatively strong military with a significant amount of cavalry. Its gradual expansion within Southern Manchuria also led it to ally with various nomadic tribes such as the Mohe (Malgal), Xianbei, and the Turks, in order to consolidate its hold in the region. The exact identity of the Mohe also tends to be ambiguous, but the location of several tribes within Buyeo and Goguryeo's core territories suggests that the ones located in the south and east were of Yemaek descent, so it was probably used as an umbrella term to denote various distinct ethnic groups within Manchuria. In any case, the Mohe within Southern Manchuria had been assimilated for at least half a millennia, and given that around three million individuals remained within what had been Goguryeo after its collapse in 668, the ethnic compositions of Goguryeo and Balhae were probably similar.

In addition, Balhae managed to recover most of Goguryeo's former territory within two decades after revolting in 696, while Chinese sources specifically record that the state was led by a coalition of Sumo (Sokmal) and Baishan (Baeksan) tribes, both located near Jolbon and Guknae Fortress, Goguryeo's initial capitals. As a result, the state was probably established on the basis of preexisting alliances that had been in place during Goguryeo's existence, while Chinese records most likely emphasized the "Mohe" identity of Balhae in order to discredit its association with Goguryeo, as "Goguryeo" individuals were paradoxically not recorded despite the similar demographic makeup of the state.

Agree, with larger Chinese territory and population this might be hard to achieve stable dual-governing system. But Mongol Empire and Yuan Dynasty had dual-system with huge Chinese population and territory.

Yes, but the balance would be much harder to maintain in the long term, given that the Mongols in the Golden Horde and Ilkhante were assimilated into the cultures of their respective regions. The Yuan was also split into numerous administrative regions, while most of the officials under Kublai Khan and afterward began to implement Chinese policies, suggesting that the aristocracy would theoretically have been assimilated if the state had held on for another century, similar to what had occurred later with the Qing.
 
Goguryeo split off from Buyeo due to ideological issues, and the former's location within mostly inhospitable terrain forced it to raid its neighbors, causing it to gradually build up a relatively strong military with a significant amount of cavalry. Its gradual expansion within Southern Manchuria also led it to ally with various nomadic tribes such as the Mohe (Malgal), Xianbei, and the Turks, in order to consolidate its hold in the region. The exact identity of the Mohe also tends to be ambiguous, but the location of several tribes within Buyeo and Goguryeo's core territories suggests that the ones located in the south and east were of Yemaek descent, so it was probably used as an umbrella term to denote various distinct ethnic groups within Manchuria. In any case, the Mohe within Southern Manchuria had been assimilated for at least half a millennia, and given that around three million individuals remained within what had been Goguryeo after its collapse in 668, the ethnic compositions of Goguryeo and Balhae were probably similar.

Here is your one very big MISUNDERSTADING. You always think Nomads = Raiders/cavalry.

A nomad (Greek: νομάς, nomas, plural νομάδες, nomades; meaning one roaming about for pasture, pastoral tribe), is a member of a community of people who move from one place to another, either with their livestock (pastoral nomads) or subsisting on hunting and gathering.

As I understand Goguroye had no pastoral herding economy and culture. So no they wasn't Nomadic even semi-nomadic. Neither their were hunter-gatherers (hunting economy can't support big state).

So unless you prove Gogureyo was dependent on pastoral herding then I still stand my point. Goguroye is NOT NOMADIC state. Not even semi- nomadic.

OTOH, Mohe/Jurchens were nomads. They main economy is based on pastoral herding. with small mount of practice of cultivation.
Balhae wasn't built by only Goguroye people. It ws built by jointly Goguroye General DaeJuyoung and Mohe tribes.

Yes, but the balance would be much harder to maintain in the long term, given that the Mongols in the Golden Horde.

Nope they didn't assimilated. Mongols/Tatars kept they culture and lifestyle way into 1500th century till Russians invaded them. It is just after centuries of effort that Russian policy to assimilate which resulted assimilation. Please make more deep research.

The Yuan was also split into numerous administrative regions, while most of the officials under Kublai Khan and afterward began to implement Chinese policies, suggesting that the aristocracy would theoretically have been assimilated if the state had held on for another century, similar to what had occurred later with the Qing.

You can't prove that. So it is moot point.
 
Here is your one very big MISUNDERSTADING. You always think Nomads = Raiders/cavalry.

As I understand Goguroye had no pastoral herding economy and culture. So no they wasn't Nomadic even semi-nomadic. Neither their were hunter-gatherers (hunting economy can't support big state).

So unless you prove Gogureyo was dependent on pastoral herding then I still stand my point. Goguroye is NOT NOMADIC state. Not even semi- nomadic.

OTOH, Mohe/Jurchens were nomads. They main economy is based on pastoral herding. with small mount of practice of cultivation.
Balhae wasn't built by only Goguroye people. It ws built by jointly Goguroye General DaeJuyoung and Mohe tribes.

That definition also includes hunting and gathering. As I stated earlier, Goguryeo was located in extremely inhospitable terrain, which forced it to relocate its capital numerous times either due to invasions or in search of resources. This meant that the capital was moved to Guknae Fortress around the early 1st century AD, then after the Cao Wei invasions, after the invasion by the Former Yan, and lastly in 427 when it was finally relocated to Pyongyang. In addition, tomb murals make frequent references to hunting, which had become part of the state's lifestyle for centuries due to a lack of resources before it became restricted to entertainment soon after Gwanggaeto's conquests. Chinese records also specified that Dae Jo-yeong was of Sumo Mohe descent, while his closest ally, Geolsa Biu, was of Baishan Mohe origin, and the lack of mention of "Goguryeo" individuals suggest that most of the "Southern Mohe" were either of Yemaek descent or had been assimilated for generations. Korean historians also suggest that Balhae was much more consolidated in terms of governance and administration than Goguryeo, suggesting that if anything, the former was much less nomadic than its predecessor.

Nope they didn't assimilated. Mongols/Tatars kept they culture and lifestyle way into 1500th century till Russians invaded them. It is just after centuries of effort that Russian policy to assimilate which resulted assimilation. Please make more deep research.

I know that, but that was only after the Golden Horde had lost almost all of its territory. My point was that if a significantly large state continued to retain most of its territory and population for at least two centuries, it would be extremely difficult for the aristocracy to resist assimilation, as they were far outnumbered by the local population. For example, Timur and Babur, both of whom claimed descent from Genghis Khan, founded empires which were assimilated into their respective regions within several generations.

You can't prove that. So it is moot point.

Given that the Mongols were significantly outnumbered by the Chinese during the Yuan, not to mention that most of the Mongols within other regions eventually became assimilated, as stated earlier, it would be extremely difficult for the Yuan to break the trend. Even if the Yuan had managed to remain mostly intact, the Chinese wouldn't be particularly happy with foreign rule for long, meaning that the ruling class would probably be overthrown forcefully if the Mongols somehow managed to strike a fragile balance.
 
That definition also includes hunting and gathering.

Every nation practiced hunting. The medievel England was extensively used hunting. But they are hardly the nomads.
For closes hunters that comply nomdic style is Tundra/Siberian People or Native Americans.
Gogureyo not Nomadic State.

As for Balhea. I said Jurchen/Mohe were nomadic tribes. It is proven fact. ANd Benlahea was founded by Mohe and Gogureyo people.
This means it is joint state of Nomadic people and Sedentary people. You can't say this for Gogureyo.
Man please stop this your non-sense. Saying Gogureyo was nomdic state. It is laughable.
Even Chinese states invaded by Xianbei after Han wasn't nomadic states. They are sedentary state which had nomadic Emperor.
Nomadic state =/= State ruled by Nomadic Emperor. Yuan Dyansty wasn't Nomadic State, same applies to Qing Dynasty.
 
Every nation practiced hunting. The medievel England was extensively used hunting. But they are hardly the nomads.
For closes hunters that comply nomdic style is Tundra/Siberian People or Native Americans.
Gogureyo not Nomadic State.

As for Balhea. I said Jurchen/Mohe were nomadic tribes. It is proven fact. ANd Benlahea was founded by Mohe and Gogureyo people.
This means it is joint state of Nomadic people and Sedentary people. You can't say this for Gogureyo.
Man please stop this your non-sense. Saying Gogureyo was nomdic state. It is laughable.
Even Chinese states invaded by Xianbei after Han wasn't nomadic states. They are sedentary state which had nomadic Emperor.
Nomadic state =/= State ruled by Nomadic Emperor. Yuan Dyansty wasn't Nomadic State, same applies to Qing Dynasty.

I guess we'll have different viewpoints, but I'll try to make this clear: Mohe =/= Jurchen, although the Heishui Mohe are generally assumed to be the ancestors of the Jurchen, and the other tribes within Manchuria also gradually assimilated. As I stated earlier, the Mohe were far from one "ethnicity," and they all had different lifestyles based on the region that each tribe inhabited. Goguryeo was a offshoot of the Buyeo that adapted a completely different lifestyle due to necessity, while the Mohe continued to appear in historical records for centuries before Goguryeo's collapse within Southern Manchuria and the Northern Korean Peninsula, both of which are widely considered by current Korean historians to have been inhabited mostly by the Yemaek tribes, which composed part of Goguryeo's ruling class, along with those of Buyeo descent and migrants from what had been Gojoseon. Virtually all Korean historians also state that Balhae implemented a sedentary system in terms of its government, in stark contrast to its predecessor.

In other words, unless you're willing to dispute what numerous historians have been collectively promoting for decades, I don't think that you can definitively prove your points, although I will acknowledge that there is some leeway for interpretation, as records tend to be scarce due to the fact that primary sources from Balhae are no longer extant.
 
In other words, unless you're willing to dispute what numerous historians have been collectively promoting for decades, I don't think that you can definitively prove your points, although I will acknowledge that there is some leeway for interpretation, as records tend to be scarce due to the fact that primary sources from Balhae are no longer extant.

Lets make clear...
We dispute
1. You are trying to prove me that "Gogureyo is more Nomadic style state".
I'm saying Gogureyo is no way nomadic state. They might conquered some of nomads but that hardly translate to becoming nomadic states.
To be honest I didn't find any acknowledgement Gogureyo was nomadic state.

2. I'm saying Balhea is more nomadic state than Gogureyo.
Seems you saying opposite.

What I'm saying is Mohe/other Manhcurian tribes were founders of Balhea. The common view (at least majority) is that majority of population of Balhea was Mohe/Manchurian tribes.
It is common view that Mohe/Manchurian tribes were nomadic or semi-nomadic.
Unless you can provide me solid proof that Mohe/Manchurian tribes were fully sedentary, then your argument is nothing but word.
 
Lets make clear...
We dispute
1. You are trying to prove me that "Gogureyo is more Nomadic style state".
I'm saying Gogureyo is no way nomadic state. They might conquered some of nomads but that hardly translate to becoming nomadic states.
To be honest I didn't find any acknowledgement Gogureyo was nomadic state.

A significant amount of Goguryeo's ruling class was initially composed of nomads which gradually assimilated over time, as some of the Yemaek tribes relied on hunting instead of agriculture. The fact that Goguryeo frequently relocated its capital for centuries before 427, even during peacetime, also suggests that the inhabitants frequently moved from place to place in search of resources, which would have been unnecessary if a stable base/capital had been firmly established beforehand. I can't provide the sources at the moment suggesting that Goguryeo was a semi-nomadic entity, because I have to extensively translate them from Korean, but I'll try to look for English sources if possible.

2. I'm saying Balhea is more nomadic state than Gogureyo.
Seems you saying opposite.

What I'm saying is Mohe/other Manhcurian tribes were founders of Balhea. The common view (at least majority) is that majority of population of Balhea was Mohe/Manchurian tribes.
It is common view that Mohe/Manchurian tribes were nomadic or semi-nomadic.
Unless you can provide me solid proof that Mohe/Manchurian tribes were fully sedentary, then your argument is nothing but word.

I'm not disputing that the Mohe made up most of the Balhae population, nor that they, along with several other tribes, had collectively founded Balhae. However, given the fact that most of the population of Goguryeo descent remained within the region long after 668, I'm just trying to point out that many, but not all, of the tribes located within Southern Manchuria were of Yemaek descent or had been culturally assimilated, based on other historians' assumptions. In addition, for around 500 years before the fall of Goguryeo, the Yemaek and the Mohe had been recorded within most of Goguryeo's possessions, with no distinction made between the two, suggesting that they were synonyms when used to specifically refer to those regions. There were certainly other Mohe north of the Songhua River outside of Goguryeo's influence, but this only suggests that "Mohe" was used as a blanket term to cover various regional tribes within Manchuria and the Korean Peninsula, so not all of them were necessarily nomadic. The Mohe, some of which became the Jurchen, collectively did become nomadic after Balhae's collapse, in part due to the widespread devastation caused by Baekdu Mountain's eruptions in the early 10th century. However, the fact that there were more than 10 main tribes, some of which are listed here, suggests that the population beforehand consisted of various different groups within different regions and lifestyles, and the southernmost ones, which generally tended to be more numerous, were more sedentary than nomadic.

In any case, Goguryeo and Balhae had been founded on the basis of complicated interlocking alliances within Manchuria and the Korean Peninsula that continued to occur for a millennia, which would be extremely difficult apply to the situation between Central Asia and China as a whole, given their interactions during the corresponding time period.
 
Top