Can the emperors and the khans become friends?

Nihao

Banned
In the Chinese history, it was easy to become aware that the nasty hostility between the northern nomadic kingdoms and the Chinese regimes. But what PoD can make them became great ailiance, or even a unified nation-state for a long period, with both of their culture and political power not being harassed by one another?

What I think the most similar one ever happened in the history is the T'ang emperor Taizong being honored as the"Heavenly Khagan", a title which being given by the various Turkic tribes, which has shown the prowess of the T'ang empire at that time.
 
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I don't think it is possible.
Difference is too much between nomads and chinese: ranging from way of life, culture and belief too governing style.
Chinese always see the Northern Nomads as barbars uncivilized.
Meantime Nomads didn't see Chinese as superior and great nation. For them China is just money and wealth which can be obtained by force.
 
They may coexist peacefully, and some khanates could be Chineese allies, but I doubt all of them will be. That's just too many different states too coral into one big pen. The most I could see are several of the Khanates on the border eventually adopting a similar relationship to the Koreans, mostly independent vassals who are a keystone of the tributary system all the same and may experience a lot of Chineese influence in their culture.
 

Nihao

Banned
I don't think it is possible.
Difference is too much between nomads and chinese: ranging from way of life, culture and belief too governing style.
Chinese always see the Northern Nomads as barbars uncivilized.
Meantime Nomads didn't see Chinese as superior and great nation. For them China is just money and wealth which can be obtained by force.

I'm thinking about having continual political marriage between them, which can make a bloodline between the two nations, thus it would be much reasonable at that time to have the nations unified, but it may seems a bit ASB.
 
I'm thinking about having continual political marriage between them, which can make a bloodline between the two nations, thus it would be much reasonable at that time to have the nations unified, but it may seems a bit ASB.

The problem I see here is not so much the idea of political marriages with the Khans, it's more the fact that there are enough petty khans that this idea would probably be unfeasible, especially since so many of them are Islamic (which doesn't allow Muslim women to merry non Muslims). Its not helped by how unstable politics in the Khanates can get either.
 
I'm thinking about having continual political marriage between them, which can make a bloodline between the two nations, thus it would be much reasonable at that time to have the nations unified, but it may seems a bit ASB.

Marriage can bring Peace between 2 nation, but that didn't last long too.
Nomads want to be free and not ruled. It doesn't well suit for Chinese system.
 
And even if there is a blood tie, that doesn't necessarily mean long term friendship - what if the khan decides he's the rightful emperor?
 
Marriage can bring Peace between 2 nation, but that didn't last long too.
Nomads want to be free and not ruled. It doesn't well suit for Chinese system.

Honestly that's just not true, (well it's true of every single type of human being on the planet but not especially true of nomads), I mean the local khanates where nothing if not despotic. It's more that the Chineese where incapable of extending control over them for a long long time, and even then most of them fell under Russian dominion instead (and the Russians had the far better system for relations with the steppe khanates).
 

Nihao

Banned
They may coexist peacefully, and some khanates could be Chineese allies, but I doubt all of them will be. That's just too many different states too coral into one big pen. The most I could see are several of the Khanates on the border eventually adopting a similar relationship to the Koreans, mostly independent vassals who are a keystone of the tributary system all the same and may experience a lot of Chineese influence in their culture.

Yeah, sincization is a good way to solve the cultural difference between the Nomads and the Chinese, and the tributary system could ensure the Nomads would not being hostile to the Chinese, but these were too unidirectional, as I'm thinking about an equal ailliance.

The Northern Song dynasty treated the Jin as equal nation-state, although the Song were being demanded some kind of tribute by the Jin, the Song didn't see it as a problem, as that amount of tribute could be earned back by trading with the surrounding countries, and this kind of relation could somewhat ensured a period of peace between the two countries. But what I wanted is a more friendly relation which is not just being supported by the fear of being conquered by the stronger "ally", which just like how the Song thought to the Jin.
 

Nihao

Banned
Honestly that's just not true, (well it's true of every single type of human being on the planet but not especially true of nomads), I mean the local khanates where nothing if not despotic. It's more that the Chineese where incapable of extending control over them for a long long time, and even then most of them fell under Russian dominion instead (and the Russians had the far better system for relations with the steppe khanates).

Then how did the Russians get together with the Nomads?
 
Yeah, sincization is a good way to solve the cultural difference between the Nomads and the Chinese, and the tributary system could ensure the Nomads would not being hostile to the Chinese, but these were too unidirectional, as I'm thinking about an equal ailliance.

Sinicization is also very unlikely. Problem is colonization of Han Chinese.
1. Land is very huge and hostile climate.
2. Land is not suitable for cultivation.
3. Nomads were very warring. So defending Chinese settlers was too expensive.
Even fighting with Nomads was very costly. Just think Ming Dynasty instead of subjugating Nomads choose to build Great Wall again. This can give how costly it was to subjugate Nomads.
I recently read that why Chinese paid annual tribute to Nomadic Empires (when nomads were strong). It is not only Chinese were weak and not able to beat them. It is also were more cheap compared to waging war with them.
 
Then how did the Russians get together with the Nomads?

They played the nomads game, Russian rule tended to come in the form of Russia inserting itself into the power dynamics of the various siberian and central asian nations and set itself up as an overlord like the nomads where used to when their neighbors had the advantage over them. It ingratiated Russia into the eyes of the local elite since it wasn't such a radical change for them.

And in a not that common twist I actually agree with MonAngel on something about Mongolia (not an insult, just noticing a pattern), sinnicization is gonna be hard work and while huge swaths of land where sinnicized OTL I'd say that probably the furthest it can go north is even further dominance of outer mongolia and the Tarim basin.
 
And in a not that common twist I actually agree with MonAngel on something about Mongolia (not an insult, just noticing a pattern), sinnicization is gonna be hard work and while huge swaths of land where sinnicized OTL I'd say that probably the furthest it can go north is even further dominance of outer mongolia and the Tarim basin.

Most Chinese settlement was after introduction of modern-agriculture method and new grain cultivation.
Before modern agriculture, Mongolian lands was impossible to support large number of sedentary society based on cultivation. They always would be outnumbered by Nomads, so it was impossible for Mongolian lands for Sinocization.
 

Nihao

Banned
Well I think what I am talking about in sinicization is different than what you were talking. I was talking about having the nomads' culture, economy and political system are similar, or even the same with the Chinese pattern, rather than just have the Chinese occupying and colonising their lands, which seems unnecessary and also not fulfilling the objective.

There were so many examples for the nomads voluntarily adopting the Chinese culture, notably the Northern Wei (384-534 AD), which heavily absorbing the Chinese culture and political system, even to a extent that if a man or woman refused to learn Chinese, he or she could be punished to death. Also the Jin, Liao and Xi Xia were also took a form of sinicization.

And I think why they were all doing that was because learning from China at that time is just like learning from European countries in 19~20th century, which in another words were a form of modernization. The mobile and rather loosely-formed Nomads were highly-adoptive to foreign influence, and it all make sense when seeing China were relatively sophisticated and wanted to learn from it to strengthen itself. So, the Nomads would be very pleased at some point if China wanted to spread its culture to them.

And I think the T'ang dynasty were doing a good job about it, and maintaining peace at the same time. The Heavenly Khagan as I had mentioned in the first post was actually a form of international organization between the T'ang and the surrounding Turkic tribes: if one of the member state has been attacked, the T'ang were responsible to help get rid of the invaders; each member states were independent while its heir's power to ascend the throne needed to be confirmed by the T'ang authority; if one of the member states wanted to do something bad to the ailliance, the other states were responsible to having war with it. Yes, that sounds modern, but the T'ang were not just maintaining the peace with the Nomads with this, it also opened the borders to them, and even let the people came from the surrounding countries settle and work in Chinese land, some of the generals and high-rank officals serving for T'ang were came from the nomadic tribes. and the T'ang were not collapsed in foreign invasion, but internal struggle.

So yeah, that let me think about if a Chinese dynasty could be such benevolent to the Nomads, there might be a chance for it to have them combine as a country.
 
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Arguably, what you describe occurred during the Qing Dynasty, and was how Manchuria came to be part of China. Technically Mongolia as well, come to it, until they broke away.
 
Well I think what I am talking about in sinicization is different than what you were talking. I was talking about having the nomads' culture, economy and political system are similar, or even the same with the Chinese pattern, rather than just have the Chinese occupying and colonising their lands, which seems unnecessary and also not fulfilling the objective.

Having an economy similar to the sedentary Chinese seems almost as likely as their horses sprouting wings and turning into pegasi. And major cultural and political changes on the steppe don't seem like they'll develop very easily or smoothly.
 
In the Chinese history, it was easy to become aware that the nasty hostility between the northern nomadic kingdoms and the Chinese regimes. But what PoD can make them became great ailiance, or even a unified nation-state for a long period, with both of their culture and political power not being harassed by one another?

It would be extremely difficult to form a long-lasting alliance as neither side would be willing to yield, as the nomads would be unwilling to adopt Chinese methods of governance in a different environment, while China's ethnocentric model would essentially prevent any state from pursuing equal policies with their northern neighbors for long.

Well I think what I am talking about in sinicization is different than what you were talking. I was talking about having the nomads' culture, economy and political system are similar, or even the same with the Chinese pattern, rather than just have the Chinese occupying and colonising their lands, which seems unnecessary and also not fulfilling the objective.

Close integration essentially requires either the Chinese to move into Central Asia, or the nomads to migrate to North China, which entails significantly altering the government for the former and assimilation for the latter. Neither is exactly ideal, as both scenarios virtually force the immigrants to blend in with the natives within several generations.

There were so many examples for the nomads voluntarily adopting the Chinese culture, notably the Northern Wei (384-534 AD), which heavily absorbing the Chinese culture and political system, even to a extent that if a man or woman refused to learn Chinese, he or she could be punished to death. Also the Jin, Liao and Xi Xia were also took a form of sinicization.

And I think why they were all doing that was because learning from China at that time is just like learning from European countries in 19~20th century, which in another words were a form of modernization. The mobile and rather loosely-formed Nomads were highly-adoptive to foreign influence, and it all make sense when seeing China were relatively sophisticated and wanted to learn from it to strengthen itself. So, the Nomads would be very pleased at some point if China wanted to spread its culture to them.

Not really. As the Wei's capitals were located far away from the Xianbei's nomadic homelands, the aristocracy decided to gradually adopt Chinese policies in part due to necessity, as it was more pragmatic to cater to the masses. The gradual cultural shift also meant that the gap between the court and military continued to increase, leading to devastating rebellions and turmoil in the late 5th and early 6th centuries as the generals became sidelined in favor of gradual assimilation, and the state was eventually partitioned between two rival entities. On the other hand, the Liao was split into two political factions opposing and favoring assimilation, not to mention that the Han Chinese were initially subject to discriminatory policies in part due to the fact that they composed the vast majority of the population, so the situation was much more complicated. The Western Xia is less relevant because it was limited to a relatively minor region within North China, while the Jurchen Jin also adopted similar policies, but involved several million immigrations heading south from Manchuria and Central Asia to North China as well, in which the vast majority were assimilated within a few generations. The Liao and Jin also utilized other foreign officials, such as those of Balhae descent, in order to establish stable policies, meaning that political decisions often tended to be multifaceted.

What I think the most similar one ever happened in the history is the T'ang emperor Taizong being honored as the"Heavenly Khagan", a title which being given by the various Turkic tribes, which has shown the prowess of the T'ang empire at that time.

And I think the T'ang dynasty were doing a good job about it, and maintaining peace at the same time. The Heavenly Khagan as I had mentioned in the first post was actually a form of international organization between the T'ang and the surrounding Turkic tribes: if one of the member state has been attacked, the T'ang were responsible to help get rid of the invaders; each member states were independent while its heir's power to ascend the throne needed to be confirmed by the T'ang authority; if one of the member states wanted to do something bad to the ailliance, the other states were responsible to having war with it. Yes, that sounds modern, but the T'ang were not just maintaining the peace with the Nomads with this, it also opened the borders to them, and even let the people came from the surrounding countries settle and work in Chinese land, some of the generals and high-rank officals serving for T'ang were came from the nomadic tribes. and the T'ang were not collapsed in foreign invasion, but internal struggle.

So yeah, that let me think about if a Chinese dynasty could be such benevolent to the Nomads, there might be a chance for it to have them combine as a country.

The Tang was founded by individuals partly of Xianbei descent, meaning that the dynasty was essentially run by nomads who employed a combination of nomadic and Chinese policies. However, the state as a whole tended to oversimplify and underestimate situations in other regions. For example, the Tang (and the Sui beforehand) assumed that subjugating the western Xianbei tribes would deprive Goguryeo of allies and significantly weaken its position within Northeast Asia. However, the Xianbei in the east, along with the Mohe (who may or may not have been composed of Yemaek tribes) sided with Goguryeo once China invaded, forcing the Sui and Tang to spend 70 years in order to conquer Goguryeo, only to lose the region 30 years later when a similar coalition of tribes banded together to establish Balhae in 698. Later, the An Shi Rebellion was prompted by the government assigning around 150,000 troops to An Lushan, a Sogdian general, which caused widespread destruction within China as the countryside was razed, while the Uyghurs and Tibetans took advantage of the chaos to invade, in which the latter sacked Chang'an, the Tang capital. In other words, while the Tang did maintain a hegemony within East Asia for around a century or so through conquest and use of tributaries/alliances, the geopolitics at the time meant that a significant amount of troops were often assigned to foreign generals, leading to widespread chaos once the central government showed signs of weakness and foreign entities renounced ties with China.
 
In the Chinese history, it was easy to become aware that the nasty hostility between the northern nomadic kingdoms and the Chinese regimes. But what PoD can make them became great ailiance, or even a unified nation-state for a long period, with both of their culture and political power not being harassed by one another?

What I think the most similar one ever happened in the history is the T'ang emperor Taizong being honored as the"Heavenly Khagan", a title which being given by the various Turkic tribes, which has shown the prowess of the T'ang empire at that time.
An alliance is the only that you're going to get willingly, if you want the Emperor and Khans to be "friends" in any way. The Qing example mentioned is more of the Manchu ruler being Emperor to his Chinese subjects and Khan to his Mongol subjects. It seems like what you want is a genuine and long-running friendship between Khan and Emperor. So perhaps the Chinese Emperor appears as a khan to his steppe counterpart, while the khan appears as perhaps a loyal vassal to the Chinese? Equality is probably too much to ask for. Chinese political thought of any period is probably going to chafe at that.

During the Sui Dynasty, one of the Turkic rulers allied with the Chinese Emperor and sent his troops to join Chinese campaigns, but I think this was a result of good personal ties between Khan and Emperor, and I know it didn't last institutionally. It could provide a point of divergence though. There was also a tacit and not very friendly alliance of convenience between the Tang Dynasty and the Uighur Empire against the Tibetans during the late Tang Dynasty. But that wasn't really friendship since there were still periods of violence between the two allies, and the Tang was quick to take revenge against the Uighurs after the Uighur state collapsed. However, a common enemy could serve as a reason for a steppe empire to work with China, if they are both threatened by a threat that threatens the existence of both states. Perhaps a stronger Tang China (no An Lushan rebellion?) forms an alliance on equal grounds with the Uighurs against either the Tibetans or maybe a more belligerent Abbasid Empire?

Culturally, if you want cultural ties between states on the steppe and the Chinese, I think it would be easier for the Mongols/Uighurs/Gokturks/Xiongnu/Xianbei to adopt Confucianism than for the Chinese to adopt steppe practices. Granted, Confucianism arose in a cultural milieu quite different from the steppe environment, but the same can be said for Buddhism, which was accepted. Economic similarities will never happen: that's the basis for differentiating the steppe from China. Politically, you could have something combining the Rouran Khaganate with the Northern Yuan, where the nomadic rulers adopt Chinese customs and titles (like era names and temple names), but it might be easier to avoid modeling a khanate's government on Chinese models, since that would trigger legitimacy issues on the Chinese side. Still, vassal status is the only thing acceptable to the Chinese side. Japan during the Tang fiercely held to the idea that the Japanese Emperor was equal to the Chinese one, and the result was that Sino-Japanese ties were communicated through what amount to linguistic loopholes, such as the use of sumeramikoto instead of tenno. It would probably be easier to just keep the Khan/Khagan title and avoid the kingship issues.

Really, I think the best and only scenario where any of the above could happen, in reference to the whole of China, is a situation between Sui/Tang China and the steppe or maybe with a Jurchen/Manchu state that doesn't control Mongolia.
 
Nomads and Sedentary civilization having good relationship and founding united state is hard. However there was attempt to create coherent nomadic-sedentary state.
One example is Balhea. If I remember correct Balhea was not genuine sedentary state. It was combination of Gogorye founded by Gogorye general who allied itself with Jurchen/Mohe/Malgal nomad tribes. I don't know how demographic structure was, but it should be fairly equal between nomads and Gogorye people. It functioned as fairly stable state.
Another attempt is Liao Dynasty. The Empire was founded by Nomadic Khitan people. After conquest of Northern China, first Emperor of Liao tried to establish stable Nomadic-Chinese Empire.

From wikipedia.
The Liao Dynasty employed two separate governments operating in parallel with one another: a Northern Administration in charge of Khitan and other nomadic peoples, most of whom lived in the northern side of Liao territory, and a Southern Administration in charge of the Chinese populace that lived predominantly in the southern side.
 
Culturally, if you want cultural ties between states on the steppe and the Chinese, I think it would be easier for the Mongols/Uighurs/Gokturks/Xiongnu/Xianbei to adopt Confucianism than for the Chinese to adopt steppe practices.

Nomads adopted Chinese culture in order to legitimize rule over their Han Chinese subjects. It is hard to adopt Chinese culture without such need.
For example, Northern Yuan. After their were driven out by Chinese proper no Chinese culture left in Mongolia.

Problem here is Nomads always think they are equal or superior to Han Chinese from time of Xiongnu to Northern Yuan. So becoming vassal is out of question.

Culturally, if you want cultural ties between states on the steppe and the Chinese, I think it would be easier for the Mongols/Uighurs/Gokturks/Xiongnu/Xianbei to adopt Confucianism than for the Chinese to adopt steppe practices. Granted, Confucianism arose in a cultural milieu quite different from the steppe environment, but the same can be said for Buddhism, which was accepted. Economic similarities will never happen: that's the basis for differentiating the steppe from China. Politically, you could have something combining the Rouran Khaganate with the Northern Yuan, where the nomadic rulers adopt Chinese customs and titles (like era names and temple names), but it might be easier to avoid modeling a khanate's government on Chinese models, since that would trigger legitimacy issues on the Chinese side. Still, vassal status is the only thing acceptable to the Chinese side.

I'm always very curious why people think Nomads were eager to accept inferior status. It frustrates me why people often underestimate the Nomads/Mongols while choosing Chinese as some superior force.
Just plain NON_SENSE.
 
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