Can the Dardanelles be forced?

Cook

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Do you have an answer to this question? Or even a good guess?
Nope. He may have seen it as a way to restrict the size of the operation, but he's equally likely to have said no because someone else thought of it first.

Does using Cyprus as a launch pad give better opperational security than Egypt?
You can isolated an island and stop most spies. Egypt or Cyprus will be harder to keep spy free.
The Turks didn’t need spies in Egypt to know what was going on (although undoubtedly there were plenty there); the Egyptian newspapers were publishing details of British and Dominion reinforcements, troop movements and preparations and there wasn’t anything the British could do about it.

With even rudimentary operational security and a deception plan, basing in Alexandria could be favourable; the Turks would learn what you wanted them to know and deploy accordingly.
 
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Orry

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I find myself wondering if there is any way to satisfy Bulgaria after the first Balkans war without upsetting the other nations.

If there was any way of avoiding the second Balkans war it would mean a weaker Ottoman empire and greater likely hood of Bulgaria working with the other Balkan nations.

With the Italo-Turkish between the Ottoman Empire and the Kingdom of Italy from September 29, 1911 to October 18, 1912. The First Balkan War, which lasted from October 1912 to May 1913 and Second from 29 June 1913 – 10 August 1913 the whole area is a mess.

The second Balkans war broke the Balkan league and also the Russian - Bulgarian pact....

Bulgaria would do far better to not launch their attacks in June 1913 and not join the CP - but how could that happen... and if it did would WW1 still start as OTL?
 
I find myself wondering if there is any way to satisfy Bulgaria after the first Balkans war without upsetting the other nations.

If there was any way of avoiding the second Balkans war it would mean a weaker Ottoman empire and greater likely hood of Bulgaria working with the other Balkan nations.

With the Italo-Turkish between the Ottoman Empire and the Kingdom of Italy from September 29, 1911 to October 18, 1912. The First Balkan War, which lasted from October 1912 to May 1913 and Second from 29 June 1913 – 10 August 1913 the whole area is a mess.

The second Balkans war broke the Balkan league and also the Russian - Bulgarian pact....

Bulgaria would do far better to not launch their attacks in June 1913 and not join the CP - but how could that happen... and if it did would WW1 still start as OTL?

No Balkan wars means less insane nationalism in the Balkans possibly less tension between A-H and Serbia no official support for the Black Hand no dead prince. WWI starts a few years later over something even more retarded.
 

Orry

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No Balkan wars means less insane nationalism in the Balkans possibly less tension between A-H and Serbia no official support for the Black Hand no dead prince. WWI starts a few years later over something even more retarded.

That was my thought - no 2nd war means Serbia focused on land occupied by Bulgaria not AH......

Also without 'winning' the 2nd War Serbia as you say may be less willing to support the Black Hand against AH....

*******

It may seem obvious but this is the first time I noticed the initials...

WW1 caused / started by AH

WW2 caused / started by an Austrian AH....
 
*******

It may seem obvious but this is the first time I noticed the initials...

WW1 caused / started by AH

WW2 caused / started by an Austrian AH....

Thank christ I thought I was the only one!:D

My German teacher pointed that out a few years ago and it stuck.
 

Orry

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Assuming that with a different 1914 the British can assign most 'new' units to the task of taking out the Ottoman Empire the maximum force I can see them being able to use initially in the Eastern Med theater is.... and no not landing in one attack and some will be needed to cover the Suez sector.

27th (formed at Magdalen hill Camp near Winchester in November-December 1914), 28th (formed at Hursley, Pitt Hill and Magdalen Hill Camps near Winchester in December 1914 - January 1915 ), 29th (formed in the Stratford-Warwick-Leamington-Rugby-Nuneaton area of Warwickshire in January-March 1915) Infantry Divisions
42nd (East Lancashire) (in Egypt by start 1915), 51st (Highland) (mobilised for full time war service on 5 August 1914.)
52nd (Lowland) (mobilised for full time war service on 5 August 1914.), 53rd (Welsh) ((mobilised for full time war service on 5 August 1914.), 54th (East Anglian) (mobilised for full time war service on 5 August 1914.)

10th (Irish), 11th (Northern), 13th (Western), 14th (Light) Available June at latest

63rd (Royal Naval) Available from start

2nd Mounted Infantry (April 1915)

!st Australian (in Egypt by end 1914) (2nd to join in August), ANZK (in Egypt by end 1914)

Indian

3rd (Lahore) (October 1914), 10th (Formed in Egypt 1914), 11th (Formed in Egypt 1914), 1st Indian Cavalry (November 1914), 2nd Indian Cavalry (November 1914)



More would be available later especially if the Mesopotamian campaign does not get messed up at Kut....

Also remember the official size of a British division is twice that of a Turkish line division.
 
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BlondieBC

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Assuming that with a different 1914 the British can assign most 'new' units to the task of taking out the Ottoman Empire the maximum force I can see them being able to use initially in the Eastern Med theater is.... and no not landing in one attack and some will be needed to cover the Suez sector.

What date are you saying this list of divisions will be available?
 

Orry

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What date are you saying this list of divisions will be available?

Edited.

In OTL some of the divisions were rushed to France - even if that was so they could have been pulled out over winter.

In TTL the British are holding a shorter section of the front in France so need less divisions on that front.
 

Orry

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Ok.

Turkish forces need to be tied up by a series of amphib opperations that threaten something important but it has to happen quickly enough that we can justify the Turks no paying special attention to the Dardanelles.

First an attack near Alexandretta which looks like it is to try and cut off the coastal routes to the Holy Land. The units that land there would be faced by one division and are likely to gain local allies who know the ground.

The second is further south but still north of the main Ottoman units in the Holy land.

While this is going on the Anzac's will be doing some night landing practice - if any unit was going to do this I would have said it was them rather than a regular British unit.

The first couple of practices will have the worst levels of secracy and the worst results. If anything leaks it will be that the exercise was a spectacular failure. The other attacks will all be day light opperations.

The attack against Saros Bay at Bulair will be a night action it will be messy - lots of troops will end up in the wrong position, there will be Blue on Blue from both sides and it will take a while for the Ottoman to work out what is happening.

The attack by the 29th division etc will be a dawn action a day or two later coupled with a strong naval Bombardment. The delay is to allow the Ottoman to depoly units north - to spend a day and a night on alert for further attacks but not to have time to bring up major formations with heavy artillery. Units will be landed both sides of the strait.

I assume no French divisions are available in TTL - they are all in France but Naval units are there. (On the Western front the Germans launch an attack which is held - just - the attack is broken off just before the British Divisions would have been called back from the Med)

Very rough series of events is

Alexandretta landings (3 Divisions?) smash local Ottoman forces and draw units from Syria and Asian Turkey to oppose them. One Division is shipped from Constantinople.

Landings in South Lebenon? (3 Divisions) threatens Turkish army in the Holy Land especially as forces in Syria have already been committed further north. Additional forces dispatched from Constantinople to deal with the Alexandretta landings as a priority.

Russian units are attacking along the Black Sea and to relieve the seige of Van. Russian Naval units threaten landings to the North and carry out bombardments against shore targets including forts. Two divisions are dispatched from the Constantinople areas to counter this. (On the Eastern European front the Russians are being pushed back by the Germans but no great disasters)

Landings at Saros Bay at night - Anzac units get ashore and engage in night fighting with 2-4000? Reservists who are taken by suprise. By dawn the Anzacs have some 3-4000 casulaties but have reached the Dardannelle shore.
(I would love to land a couple of RN Armoured cars and let them cause chaos for a day or two by pushing north to disrupt attempts to being units against the landing.

Landings against the enterance of the strait (3 Divisions) conducted against troops that have been on alert for 36-48 hours (long enough to get tired - not long enough to get used to it).

Initial attempts at minesweeping with civilian crews fail because the crews withdraw in the face of gunfire from the forts even with Battleship support. But with less lines of mines than IOTL the ships can engage the forts better although a few suffer damage they also get a couple of spectacular hits on ammo stores (as OTL in the various bombardments)

Although some Ottoman units are still holding onto hill top positions in 2 weeks the European side of the strait is 'neutralised' allowing minesweepers with naval crews to clear a gap in the minefields - this gap is still underfire from some of the Asian side forts and from light howitzers.

A battleship force is pushed through the strait (1 is lost when it is damaged by shell fire and drifts onto an uncleared mine - another is damaged and beached on the European side where it acts as a Gun Battery)

The Bombardment of Constantinople causes the Ottoman Government to move the Capital to Ankera to continue the war although the city is to be defended.

The Balkan nations seemed to be acting in an opportunistic manner in the war with the British seeming to be winning Bulgaria is not going to declare for the CP. I think it is more likely that they and Greece will Join the allies to see what they can grab especially after Italy joins the war in May. And yes I forsee a 3rd Balkens war after the end of WW1 as none of the nations will be 'defeated' and will all be demanding the same territories as their reward for participation.

Greece and Bulgaria (and later Roumania) will not be working together - rather they would all be trying to seize land as barganing chips in the post war peace conference....

The Bospherous will not be forced until Bulgarian units are deployed along the black sea. The Failure of the civilian leadership leads to an attempted Army Coup that leaves the Ottoman empire in disorder and lays up trouble for the future.

Italy will start off attacking as in OTL but once Luigi Cadorna choked to death on under cooked Pasta (or something - the Guy is an idiot and has to die or at least suffer something that gets him out of the way) they started to think more strategically which feeds into the fall of the AH in 1916.......
 

Orry

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I am going to have to take Kitchener out some time in 1914 - He is only 64 but the man is a pain to how I want to write my TL. I wonder if Luigi Cadorna could visit and they both get a bad dose of food poisoning.....

Reading about him messing up the Munitions committee is the last straw.... somebody else is going to have to organize Kitchener's Army.

Sir Stanley von Donop (I mean von Donop as Master-General of Ordnance) loses his main backer and the wider capacity of the country can be used earlier. More Ammunition etc is available to support opparations in France and against Turkey.

von Donop was not bad at most of his job - just to hidebound and unwilling to go outside the usual channels.
 

Orry

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Keep Haldane as Secretary of State for War; he wa remove because he as falsely accused of being pro-German.

Trouble is he did not lose that post when he was accused of being pro-German - he was promoted to Lord Chancellor in 1912 and that was the post he was driven from in 1915....

H. H. Asquith was both Secretary of State for War and PM until 5th August... we need somebody else to take over. Maybe if Kitchener is still out of the country could we get Lloyd George in a year early - he supported a war against Germany's allies. Then have Kitchener take up a post to concentrate on raising the new army as he was one of the few how recognized it would be a long war.

Or could John Edward Bernard Seely not send the order that lead to the Curragh incident in Ireland in 1914 - He was a friend of Churchill and might also support a campaign against Germany's allies....
 

Orry

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Out of curiosity, is this the actual TL or an discussion on how it may be done?

Its a TL that exists on paper and is being edited based on discussion for posting when I think the flames will be cool enough to survive :)
 
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