Can the Eastern Bloc become democratic with successful economies and w/o a Soviet collapse?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Maybe

  • I don't know


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Can the Cold War end with the Eastern bloc reforming their economies and avoiding the "Era of Stagnation" and without the Soviet Union collapsing afterwards?

How would the Soviet and Eastern European political parties fare after 1989 in this scenario?

As far as I remember, South Korea became democratic even with a fledging economy. Can this also happen in the Eastern bloc?
 
The Eastern Bloc never conceded to the legitimacy of Soviet hegemony, especially not after the corruption/terror of occupation and military interventions. The majority just were not invested in their satellite's regimes and always looked for a means to break free. Any liberalization was always going to lead to the drifting of Eastern Europe toward the West, if only for national pride.
 
Soviet unity, maybe, although the Union would have shrunk a bit. The New Union Treaty was going strong in Russia, Belarus, the Central Asian SSRs, Azerbaijan and to a lesser extent the Ukraine before the coup utterly wrecked support for continuing the USSR. No one's really sure how that would have gone - some (including Vladimir Putin) think the Soviet Union could have remained a superpower well into the modern day, while others speculate that the poorly defined seperation of powers between the SSRs and the central Soviet government would have ultimately led to the Union's collapse. We've had a couple TLs written about it.

Wouldn't you have to avoid Brezhnev to avoid the Era of Stagnation?
 

GeographyDude

Gone Fishin'
Why the rush to privatize?

Maybe if more eastern European governments had taken the approach, sure, we'll sell off some state-run utilities, at a good, fair price to us. :)
 
Why the rush to privatize?

Maybe if more eastern European governments had taken the approach, sure, we'll sell off some state-run utilities, at a good, fair price to us. :)

In which case they would still be waiting to privatize and there would have been no reform at all. They were going to get what they were going to get. Waiting five years would have done nothing except waste five years. The assets were practically worthless. Mostly WWII era factories (at least by Western Standards) , dilapidated housing, dreary looking shops and obsolete state farms. Maybe a few years of protective tariffs scaling slowly downward might have helped so they didn't have to compete with the West as quickly. As long as State Farm #256 remained State Farm #256 it wasn't going to improve in any meaningful way. For there to have been any chance at progress at all the economy had to be privatized. No matter what they did the transition would have been tough because transitions always are. In the end I think that it worked about as well as could be realistically done.
 
The Warsaw Pact states are doomed in a scenario with liberalization, simply because they never had the support of the people and had to be maintained at gunpoint. A democratic Poland, or Bulgaria, or wherever would inevitably vote to reject Communism and stop being a Soviet puppet.

A democratic Soviet Union might be possible, but the later the POD gets the harder that becomes (to the point where by the 1980s and onward it's basically impossible).
 
The Warsaw Pact states are doomed in a scenario with liberalization, simply because they never had the support of the people and had to be maintained at gunpoint. A democratic Poland, or Bulgaria, or wherever would inevitably vote to reject Communism and stop being a Soviet puppet.

A democratic Soviet Union might be possible, but the later the POD gets the harder that becomes (to the point where by the 1980s and onward it's basically impossible).

Yeah, the Eastern Europeans never wanted to become part of the Soviet Empire in the first place. The moment Soviet troops left the Communist governments were doomed.
 
China doesn't have to maintain a massive military and keep the governments of a dozen puppet states in power against a hostile population.
 
The Warsaw Pact states are doomed in a scenario with liberalization, simply because they never had the support of the people and had to be maintained at gunpoint. A democratic Poland, or Bulgaria, or wherever would inevitably vote to reject Communism and stop being a Soviet puppet.

A democratic Soviet Union might be possible, but the later the POD gets the harder that becomes (to the point where by the 1980s and onward it's basically impossible).

Even with successful economic reforms?
 
The Warsaw Pact states are doomed in a scenario with liberalization, simply because they never had the support of the people and had to be maintained at gunpoint. A democratic Poland, or Bulgaria, or wherever would inevitably vote to reject Communism and stop being a Soviet puppet.

A democratic Soviet Union might be possible, but the later the POD gets the harder that becomes (to the point where by the 1980s and onward it's basically impossible).
Not really - in different countries the situation was different, and the residents' attitude to the government was not permanent.
Not really - in different countries the situation was different, and the residents' attitude to the government was not permanent.
In Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia, the Communists really enjoyed tremendous popularity (the latter truth was quickly lost). Hungarian Communists (initially unused by the Hungarians) gained support under Kadar (so much so that the "more right" version of the HSWP is still ruling) .... Each country is considered separately.
 
Can the Cold War end with the Eastern bloc reforming their economies and avoiding the "Era of Stagnation" and without the Soviet Union collapsing afterwards?

Yes, it can.

It's hard though, since what was going on in the Satellites and Yugoslavia had a big influence on events in the USSR and vice versa. The Soviets being strong enough to survive but weak enough that they give up on Eastern Europe and allow it to liberalize (potentially extremely dangerous for them) requires things to happen just right. Further, no "Era of Stagnation" in the Eastern European Satellite states strengthens the USSR, both because the stagnation harmed the Soviet economy and world strategy and the debt-fueled boom that caused the E. European stagnation ALSO hurt the Soviets.

The "Era of Stagnation" in Eastern Europe involved paying for some poor choices in the 60s by the Eastern European regimes - namely, they all attempted debt-fed economic growth at the wrong time (since Western economies couldn't afford their exports due to the economic problems happening over in the West), meaning that instead of the money they borrowed from the West feeding economic growth, the borrowed money funded current consumption. This was just a huge mess of awful for the Eastern block - it weakened the Soviet system since Soviet citizens traveling to Eastern Europe lost faith in their own system, since they could see Eastern Europe "outperforming" them (and when those Soviet citizens included future decision-makers like Gorbachev, that was a problem); it made Eastern Europe dependent on the whims of the West, since defaulting on their loans would be humiliating - possibly to the point of endangering their regimes; it weakened Eastern Europe by masking the inefficiencies building up in their economies since in the short term they could stay inefficient and borrow more; it further weakened Eastern Europe because ultimately to meet those debts with long and brutal periods of austerity, which meant key services and needed investments weren't being made as the Satellite States (and Yugoslavia) struggled to pay back the loans of the 60s, which in turn weakened the legitimacy of the state far more than any other single factor.

And it's worth noting that just avoiding an austerity-generated stagnation doesn't involve avoiding other stagnations. The Soviet stagnation going on at the same sort of time had different reasons (namely resource exhaustion in their Western territories combined with a huge expansion of oil production that allowed the Soviets to paper over the cracks and defer real reforms to their coal and steel industries). At the same time, countries like Algeria and Argentina were having similar periods of stagnation and crisis for their own reasons and even the much more robust and wealthy Western powers like the US and Britain were enduring their own periods of relative "stagnation" and crisis (of course, nowadays central bankers would kill for the growth rates that the Brezhev-era USSR had or the Nixon-era USA had) - witness the US coming off the gold standard, the death of ambition in the US Space Program and the British Winter of Discontent. Pretty much everyone had some sort of prolonged and traumatic economic crisis between 1970 and 1990.

So to get this exact outcome you want requires threading the eye of a needle.

fasquardon
 
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