Can The Axis Reach the Urals by late 41

Could Goring and Heydrich see the final decisive battle is on a psychological level. With the support of the people etc etc they can finally crush Bolshevism.

What would the effects of a wartime economy have on Nazi Germany, also what if they actually used Czech, French and Belgian industry instead of just having it sit there.

They did use it. A lot of production was sabotaged by the workers. Don't trust anything made by Browning during the war.
 
Can we see mass surrenders by Red Army forces, if Moscow is captured. The Red Army is sent into disarray and with no contact from Stalin since he's fleeing to Siberia there isn't anyone to hold them together with fear. Everybody starts surrendering.

This allows the Axis to punch straight through any defenses the Red Army can put up and move to the Urals with a super overstretched supply line they can barely hold. They strenghten their supply lines from late 41-44 .

Also what happens to the Red Army if they stop receiving as much Lend Lease. I was thinking that the Axis find out the Enigma is cracked and the U-boat campaign is deadly until 43 when the anti-submarine defenses are improved so more lend lease is forced to go Britain leaving less for the Soviets.

The Germans didn't have the infantry reserves to take and hold Moscow in 1941. If they do "take" it, the casualties to do so will be ugly, and the Russian winter counterattack will be all in at Moscow, and it will be a greater bloodbath that will bleed them white. I don't see them holding it, although they might try.
 
The distance between Moscow and Sverdlovsk is about the same as the distance between Moscow and the Soviet border. I will go out on a limb and say that it is logistically impossible in the timeframe that Nazi Germany existed in.
 

Kongzilla

Banned
I was thinking that the Americans are focusing on Japan so they still have to make a fairly large army and then they have to supply Britain with Lend Lease Russian Lend lease is secondary and will probably get even less with the realisation that Enigma is cracked and the increase in British or maybe American shipping deaths. So maybe lend lease gets to the British means they have to send more ships and so lend lease is available for the SU. Maybe the SU even has to buy the weapons in Hard currency.

Incite a few rebblions in the Moslem republics once they see that the Germans can liberate Iraq and Iran or something like that. With the death of Zhukov and a lot of the Faceless planners Red army get's thrown in dissimilar
 
anotherlurker said:
maybe if they go into the war to destroy communism by freeing all its peoples and not by killing all their people. ...the USSR certainly pissed off a lot people during that time. including russians.
You're right on the second, but achieving the first requires Nazis not to be Nazis.:rolleyes: (At a minimum, you need Hitler not to be Hitler.:rolleyes: Or have him fall under a convenient train.:p)
Mr.J said:
Germany invades Russia in summer 1940, maybe they can make it to the Urals by the end of 1941 :p
LOL.:D:D (Hmmm....:p)
 
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Kongzilla

Banned
What happens if the rasputitsa doesn't happen and doesn't bog down the Axis when they are going for Moscow or it happens later on. Stalin runs like Hell leaving behind a lot of the faceless planners and soldiers and demands that his men fight to the last, Zhukov is placed in charge of the defense. Not very inspiring to his probably low moral and inexperienced troops. After a couple of days or weeks of fighting Zhukov surrenders knowing it's hopeless and wants to spare his men.

So with Moscow gone a presumably a lot of the Faceless planners dead along with a captive or dead Zhukov. I don't know if this would happen and if it would be able to help the Axis in any way.
 
Certainly an earlier spring Rasputitsa could help, allowing the Germans to attack earlier, but I have no idea on how to solve the autumn Rasputitsa. A warmer winter could help, but that has its own problems.
 
Perhaps a better question is whether or not what Axis forces reach the Urals in the timeframe could do anything useful? Some sort of commando force (if they had them) could, but the thing about Russia late in the year is that it's cold, and the thing about the Urals is that they are mountains, and when you throw them together in the winter.... well.... I wouldn't want to be there.
 
I hate to break it too the party, but the result of just letting the German generals run the campaign with no meddling from Hitler is certainly not the Germans reaching the Urals or even Moscow. Why? Because they might decide to try and go for Moscow in August/September instead of dealing with the rest of the Ukraine.

Despite the claims from various German generals in the post-war, Hitler's decision to halt Army Group Center in favor of reinforcing Army Group South was certainly the correct one. At that point, any further eastward advance by AGC would have broken their logistic train and the Germans would promptly get bogged down against Russian resistance, losing irreplaceable men and machinery for no appreciable gain.

Having the forces wheel south and north, on the other hand, put very little additional pressure on German logistics while also destroying large (if disorganized) Soviet forces on AGC's strategic right flank and denying the Soviets the resources of the industrial Donets Basin. In the mean time, the Germans were able to extend and strengthen their supply lines so they could ultimately conduct IOTLs campaign on Moscow, although not succeed at it, beginning in October.

If the generals have their way, however, the result is an attritional struggle that saps German strength while the Soviets draw upon their greater additional resources (thanks to keeping possesssion of the Donets basin) and those Soviet troops in the Ukraine that were eliminated IOTL get reorganized and a re-equipped.

Come winter, the Germans would be much weaker and the Soviets in a much more favorable position. That could only spell disaster when the Soviet winter counter-offensive kicks off.
 
So with Zhukov dead, and Stalin furious. The Red army is crippled and it thrown behind the Ural mountains. Luftwaffe bombing of the Factories means that Stalin has to move them even further east hurting the production of vehicles.

The loss of the Baku oilfields means they have to buy fuel off other people, I'm thinking USA but maybe off British using the Iran/Iraq oilfields turning the Middle east into a very important battlefield instead of a secondary one like OTL.

Also what about South America, could they be a source of war materials I know there were a few countries like Bolivia and Brazil that had slight leaning to the Axis. With Bolivia could there be an earlier coup that allows them supply Nazi Germany with war materials. I know most of them probably wouldn't do it because they would get screwed over because they are supplying Germany, so could they do it through a proxy. Maybe it gets sold to Spain or another country with money that Germany gave them. Or would those ships still be sunk.

Bolivia and Brazil may have had slight leanings, but they wouldn't piss off the US that bad.
 
I would put more emphasis on North Africa and the Middle East before dealing with the Soviets. Have Hitler die or be killed early in the war so Goering can take power. Work on clearing the Royal Navy from the Mediterranean so your shipping can pass through freely and keep Uboats on patrol to get any stragglers. Then work on capturing Egypt, Rommel invades from the West in Libya, Vichy French and Italian ships support a combined landing to capture Alexandria with the Luftwaffe providing fighter cover. One you've driven the British from Egypt you can incite rebellions in various Arab countries so you will be greeted as liberators when you roll in on top of having public support for the war effort. Once you've captured Middle Eastern oil fields you can now stop, build up a defensive barrier from Normandy to Gibralter so you can get the oil shipped back to be processed in Germany. This also buys you time to build your forces back up and prepare for your Spring invasion of the Soviet Union. Invade from the Caucusus and Poland at the same time, capturing the Ukraine for its grain and Azerbaijan for its oil. Keep building defensive lines at every city you capture, so you can hold the lands you've captured in the event of a counter attack. For the drive to Moscow, I would want air superiority first so you can bomb the Soviets that would otherwise bog down your armored drive to Moscow. When taking the city, first surround it and shell it to weaken morale and attempt to starve them into surrender. Hopefully they sue for peace and you have ended this with all the resources you need to repel any allied attack and so you can hold out longer if needed.
 
If the Germans enter Moscow then it's going to have be November at the earliest to be possible. By that point they will already be at the limit of their supplies. Meanwhile the population of Moscow is thrown at them in suicidal counter attacks (with NKVD guns pointed at their backs if necessary) and street battles. You have a Stalingrad x 5.

The best hope for the Germans is that Soviet morale collapses but it probably won't.

As winter closes in the Germans are exhausted, running low on food and ammo in a city that is full of rubble. The Soviets counter attack with their troops brought from the East and you will almost certainly get the Germans trapped in Moscow with no force strong enough to relieve them. Moscow is destroyed but so is Army Group Centre as they fall back to Smolensk in disarray.

The only Germans reaching the Urals are POWs on their way to Siberia
 
Why try driving straight into Moscow when you can surround the city and bomb/shell them into surrender. Even just blockading and starving them into surrender is a preferable alternative to losing thousands of men and tanks in brutal urban warfare where the Soviets have the advantage in the first place.
 
Why try driving straight into Moscow when you can surround the city and bomb/shell them into surrender. Even just blockading and starving them into surrender is a preferable alternative to losing thousands of men and tanks in brutal urban warfare where the Soviets have the advantage in the first place.

Because encircling the city will be extremely difficult. The Germans tried and failed IOTL, by a very wide margin. The Moscow-Volga-Canal is a strong defensive barrier by itself. In the south the Oka river is also a barrier.
 
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