Can Russia and Germany co-exist as superpowers?

See OTL where the USRR could only be condidered a superpower after it had essentially vassalized all of eastern Europe up to Germany. In an ATL where Germany is the superpower, it would most likely extend to the Baltics and Ukraine. Can any situation exist where BOTH would be considered superpowers at the same time?
 

Magical123

Banned
No unless of course you have a Rosa wins timeline where Russia and Germany coexist as communist states they will fighting over the same territory, have interests in the same places, and for those reasons you will have inevitable conflict.
 

Deleted member 97083

If China or the Japanese Empire was threatening enough to Russia, and the US (allied with the UK) was threatening enough to Germany, then a long term Russian-German coexistence could happen.
 
A particularly grim world would be one where Soviet Russia and Germany ally and win world war 2, and take the lands spelled out for each other in the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

Germany gets all of Europe up the Curzon line in it's sphere (evil European Union) and Russia gets all of it's OTL conquests.

e77fba690aa346461418893f7b0885a2.jpg


So this except Sweden and Finland are also Nazi.

Russia declares war on the Britain and invades India and Iran from the north. With both the Red Fleet and the Kasiermarine putting the stranglehold on Britian and the Crown Jewel of the Empire in Russian hands Britain capitulates.

Japan and America are too busy fighting each other to contest either Germany or Russia.

So there, two super powers. They'd probably also support rival factions in China and post-colonial India, so you get cold war style proxy wars as well.
 

Deleted member 97083

A particularly grim world would be one where Soviet Russia and Germany ally and win world war 2, and take the lands spelled out for each other in the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

Germany gets all of Europe up the Curzon line in it's sphere (evil European Union) and Russia gets all of it's OTL conquests.

e77fba690aa346461418893f7b0885a2.jpg


So this except Sweden and Finland are also Nazi.

Russia declares war on the Britain and invades India and Iran from the north. With both the Red Fleet and the Kasiermarine putting the stranglehold on Britian and the Crown Jewel of the Empire in Russian hands Britain capitulates.

Japan and America are too busy fighting each other to contest either Germany or Russia.

So there, two super powers. They'd probably also support rival factions in China and post-colonial India, so you get cold war style proxy wars as well.
It would require Hitler to be replaced, Himmler eliminated (both too crazy and dead set on "Lebensraum"), and for Zhukov (who was calling for a Soviet invasion of Germany) to be dismissed by Stalin.
 

Deleted member 1487

A particularly grim world would be one where Soviet Russia and Germany ally and win world war 2, and take the lands spelled out for each other in the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

Germany gets all of Europe up the Curzon line in it's sphere (evil European Union) and Russia gets all of it's OTL conquests.

e77fba690aa346461418893f7b0885a2.jpg


So this except Sweden and Finland are also Nazi.

Russia declares war on the Britain and invades India and Iran from the north. With both the Red Fleet and the Kasiermarine putting the stranglehold on Britian and the Crown Jewel of the Empire in Russian hands Britain capitulates.

Japan and America are too busy fighting each other to contest either Germany or Russia.

So there, two super powers. They'd probably also support rival factions in China and post-colonial India, so you get cold war style proxy wars as well.
Yep, basically this.
 
A particularly grim world would be one where Soviet Russia and Germany ally and win world war 2, and take the lands spelled out for each other in the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

Germany gets all of Europe up the Curzon line in it's sphere (evil European Union) and Russia gets all of it's OTL conquests.

e77fba690aa346461418893f7b0885a2.jpg


So this except Sweden and Finland are also Nazi.

Russia declares war on the Britain and invades India and Iran from the north. With both the Red Fleet and the Kasiermarine putting the stranglehold on Britian and the Crown Jewel of the Empire in Russian hands Britain capitulates.

Japan and America are too busy fighting each other to contest either Germany or Russia.

So there, two super powers. They'd probably also support rival factions in China and post-colonial India, so you get cold war style proxy wars as well.

I think Russia would demand Finland. No way would they allow the Germans so close to Leningrad. But then I guess the Germans demand all of Poland/Lithuania. No way would they allow the Russians so close to East Prussia. And then the alliance breaks, nuclear war, etc. etc.
 
I managed the following:

Germany with WW1 borders, plus OTL Austria and Tyrol, the Sudetenland and Luxemburg as the core region.
German sphere: Bohemia (closely aligned to Germany both politically and economically), Slovakia (as Bohemia), Hungary plus transylvania (with more political indenpendence), Poland (as Bohemia but with slightly more political independence), Denmark (politically independent but with close economic ties and steered towards the german bloc, Holland (as Denmark), Belgium (slightly more dependent than Denmark/Holland), Italy (independent politically but with close economic ties), France (independent politically and economically but with Germany as it's main trading partner, Yugoslavia (as Denmark/Holland).

Russia: as Soviet Union
Russian sphere: Unified Scandinavia (great autonomy), Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey, Persia and Korea

They would certainly count as superpowers in my opinion.
 

Deleted member 97083

No he wasn't? Where did you get that idea?
Well I could be wrong. It looks like it's a point of contention.

From Wikipedia:
From 2 February 1941, as the Chief of the General Staff, and Deputy Minister of Defense of the USSR, Zhukov took part in drawing up the "Strategic plan for deployment of the forces of the Soviet Union in the event of war with Germany and its allies." The plan was completed no later than 15 May 1941.

Some researchers (for example, Victor Suvorov) conclude that, on 14 May, Soviet People's Commissar of Defense Semyon Timoshenko and Zhukov suggested to Joseph Stalin a preemptive attack against Germany through Southern Poland. Soviet forces would occupy the Vistula Border and continue to Katowice or even Berlin (should the main German armies retreat), or the Baltic coast (should German forces not retreat and be forced to protect Poland and East Prussia). The attacking Soviets were supposed to reach Siedlce, Deblin, and then capture Warsaw before penetrating toward the southwest and imposing final defeat at Lublin.

Historians do not have the original documents that could verify the existence of such a plan, or whether Stalin accepted it. In a transcript of an interview on 26 May 1965, Zhukov stated that Stalin did not approve the plan. However, Zhukov did not clarify whether execution was attempted. As of 1999, no other approved plan for a Soviet attack had been found.
 
Well I could be wrong. It looks like it's a point of contention.

From Wikipedia:

That Zhukov drew up a pre-emotive strike plan is well known. This isn't remarkable though: it was his job as Chief of the General Staff to draw up plans for any number of contingencies as he was indeed doing. There is zero evidence, however, that he pushed for the plans implementation.

Perhaps; but by 1942, 1943, the Soviets may see the opportunity to invade.

The only circumstances in which the Soviets attack the Germans first is if Germany is already on her knees. Otherwise, Germany would represent a target that, while eminently beatable, would be harder to take down then would be for Stalin's liking.
 
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The only circumstances in which the Soviets attack the Germans first is if Germany is already on her knees. Otherwise, Germany would represent a target that, while eminently beatable, would be harder to take down then would be for Stalin's liking.

any possible universe in which Baltics & Finland are not placed in Soviet sphere? always view that as poison for Germany, political and economic, accept the Soviet territorial swap and push Finns further away from Leningrad?

also, some plan to allow Soviets access to Med thru Turkish Straits needed? they could place Bulgaria in Soviet sphere and occupy the Greek portion of Eastern Thrace. OR invade European Turkey, most likely excluding Istanbul, and basically hand over to the Soviets (similar to Poland.)
 
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