Can-Ken: Canadian Kennedys

[clintonforever]

Well only real difference is Kennedy survives and becomes PM of Canada. His impact on world events is greatly diminished though.

Most Americans when asked about the Canadian PM reply..."John who?"

The Kennedy name never recieves the recognition it deserves.....

The Nixon-Humphrey-Jackson timeline looks pretty boring....

A very boring timeline.......

 

[RogueBeaver]

No PQ, No Pierre Trudeau, No Mulroney, No Charter of Human Rights & Freedoms, No referenda, and a decent Montreal economy. Vietnam is won. Not to mention the elimination of most of Quebec's well known public figures. How is this boring? Finally, we avoid Carter and probably Clinton.

 

[Standard X]

No, the men were given English names and the girls French names. Sounds reasonable to me. Daniel Johnson for example. It depends, look at Jean Charest, whose real name is John James Charest. Or Pierre-Elliott Trudeau.

Daniel Johnson does have a brother named Pierre Marc. So what the the F in John F. Kennedy stand for? Obviously it's not Fitzgerald. Also why the hell would Rene Levesque not enter politics in Quebec in 1960 simply because the Kennedy existed? That make absolutely no sense! French-speaking nationalism in Quebec would eventually suffaced and the Parti Quebecois would seceed from the UN Party by 1970. The Kennedy family certainly isn't going to butterfly away that. I think you're going to need to reconcile or revise it otherwise you have a very good TL.

 

[RogueBeaver]

OK, in 1960 Rene Levesque won in Laurier. Since the Unionists operated under "Daley rules", there was a fake Rene Levesque, similar to JFK's OTL Russo ploy in '46. He won a razor-thin victory. All I do is increase the fake Levesque's vote by 100 and he's out. In 1960 the Liberal margin was 400 votes in six seats. Reverse that and the UN stays in despite losing 25% of their '56 caucus. After losing three times, he returns to journalism and becomes the Francophone Mansbridge until his death in 1990.

 

[Standard X]

OK, in 1960 Rene Levesque won in Laurier. Since the Unionists operated under "Daley rules", there was a fake Rene Levesque, similar to JFK's OTL Russo ploy in '46. He won a razor-thin victory. All I do is increase the fake Levesque's vote by 100 and he's out. In 1960 the Liberal margin was 400 votes in six seats. Reverse that and the UN stays in despite losing 25% of their '56 caucus. After losing three times, he returns to journalism and becomes the Francophone Mansbridge until his death in 1990.

But what is the direct cause-&-effect? That is, how does the presence of the Kennedy family thwart Rene Levesuqe's run for public office? Is it something that Joseph Sr did directly or indirectly? Or is it something Jean-Francois had a role in? Explain. Who's to say that a few years later Levesque doesn't get elected to Parliment instead?
This obviously doesn't butterfly away the rise of French speaking separtism in Quebec in the 60's and 70's. After all, French president Charles DeGualle vistied Canada in 1967. If Levesque doesn't emerge as its leader then someone else will surely emerge to fill that void. You have to take these factors into consideration in your TL.

 

[RogueBeaver]

Standard X, Levesque wouldn't be elected to Parliament, he would never want to go to Ottawa. There is a consensus, including Graham Fraser, the Languages Commissioner and one of his best biographers, that without Levesque the PQ never becomes respectable. Will there be a RIN fringe party? Yes. Will they ever become part of the mainstream and gain more than 10 seats? No. Just like Maurice Duplessis, the party would not have been created were it not for him. Daniel Johnson tried to save the UN by making it a conservative PQ, and there was zero difference between "egalite ou independence" and sovereignty-association in practical terms. That is why Johnson kept Robert Kennedy as Deputy Premier and Minister of Justice, to reassure a divided caucus and the Anglos. Bobby's deputy, Jean-Guy Cardinal, led the separatist wing of the UN in OTL, leading to their disintegration. Bertrand's son Francois became a minister in Levesque's Cabinet in 1979. The Kennedys don't keep Levesque out of politics, Daley Rules under the Unionists do. That was the modus operandi until 1960, and not completely eliminated until Levesque's first-term reforms.

 

[Standard X]

Standard X, Levesque wouldn't be elected to Parliament, he would never want to go to Ottawa. There is a consensus, including Graham Fraser, the Languages Commissioner and one of his best biographers, that without Levesque the PQ never becomes respectable. Will there be a RIN fringe party? Yes. Will they ever become part of the mainstream and gain more than 10 seats? No. Just like Maurice Duplessis, the party would not have been created were it not for him. Daniel Johnson tried to save the UN by making it a conservative PQ, and there was zero difference between "egalite ou independence" and sovereignty-association in practical terms. That is why Johnson kept Robert Kennedy as Deputy Premier and Minister of Justice, to reassure a divided caucus and the Anglos. Bobby's deputy, Jean-Guy Cardinal, led the separatist wing of the UN in OTL, leading to their disintegration. Bertrand's son Francois became a minister in Levesque's Cabinet in 1979. The Kennedys don't keep Levesque out of politics, Daley Rules under the Unionists do. That was the modus operandi until 1960, and not completely eliminated until Levesque's first-term reforms.

#1. It wouldn't be called the 'Daley Rules' for Richard Daley was the Mayor of Chicago, not Quebec City. #2, You have not demonstrated the cause-&-effect of the Kennedy's (directly or indirectly)thrwarting Levesque's close election in the Quebec legislature in 1960. Therefore one will have to assume that Levesque narrowly wins the 1960 election as he did in OTL. # 3. One cannot overstate Charles DeGaulle famous speech in Montreal in 1967, for it certainly served as the crucial catalyst for French speaking nationalism. #4. The FLQ will certainly not be butterflyed away for they were formed in the early 60's independently of Rene Levesque.

 

[RCAF Brat]

#1. It wouldn't be called the 'Daley Rules' for Richard Daley was the Mayor of Chicago, not Quebec City. #2, You have not demonstrated the cause-&-effect of the Kennedy's (directly or indirectly)thrwarting Levesque's close election in the Quebec legislature in 1960. Therefore one will have to assume that Levesque narrowly wins the 1960 election as he did in OTL. # 3. One cannot overstate Charles DeGaulle famous speech in Montreal in 1967, for it certainly served as the crucial catalyst for French speaking nationalism. #4. The FLQ will certainly not be butterflyed away for they were formed in the early 60's independently of Rene Levesque.

DeGaulle could have been taken out by one of the many attempts on his life in the early 1960s. IIRC there were a couple where DeGaulle only lived because he got lucky. Not usre what sort of butterflies DeGaulle being gunned down in 1960 or 1961 would have on French politics, but certainly there wouldn't be DeGaulle being a jackass in Quebec in 1967.

 

[Standard X]

DeGaulle could have been taken out by one of the many attempts on his life in the early 1960s. IIRC there were a couple where DeGaulle only lived because he got lucky. Not usre what sort of butterflies DeGaulle being gunned down in 1960 or 1961 would have on French politics, but certainly there wouldn't be DeGaulle being a jackass in Quebec in 1967.

However the POD is the founder of the Kennedy clan, Patrick Kennedy immigrating to Montreal instead of Boston in 1848, not DeGaulle getting assassinated in the early 60's

 

[RCAF Brat]

However the POD is the founder of the Kennedy clan, Patrick Kennedy immigrating to Montreal instead of Boston in 1848, not DeGaulle getting assassinated in the early 60's

Which causes a whole bunch of little changes all over. maybe DeGaulle is more tactful and doesn't stick his foot in his mouth. Perhaps a series of minor events triggered by the POD leads to one bunch of assassins either getting the time right or not being so incompetent and thus succeeding. Perhaps Pearson never invited DeGaulle into Canada in 1967... All sorts of little things could wipe DeGaulle's speech from history, and could leave Quebec seccession on the fringe of polite politics.

 

[RogueBeaver]

I agree with Graham Fraser, that the PQ would never be respectable and form the government without Rene Levesque. Bobby has the closet Pequiste Jean-Guy Cardinal as his deputy, which allows all regular nationalist sentiment to be absorbed within the UN. IOTL, Bertrand fought Johnson and Cardinal, who wanted to turn the party into a conservative PQ. That is why the party disintegrated, the conservatives went to Robert Bourassa (ironically a centre-left man), and the separatists to Rene Levesque. Bobby was made Deputy Premier by Johnson to appease his Anglo voters and federalists. There was no love lost between these two, trust me. In any case, Can-Ken and RC will be redone later this year along the lines of Eastern Entrance, and next year, a new project outside North America...