Can imperial Japan survive and thrive?

[WhatIsAUserName]

hmm...so it sounds like the key is having an actual proper Japanese military rather than outsourcing the soldiering business to feudal lords.

Pretty expensive that though, and hard to justify...have some minor conflicts with Korea? A stronger and more challenging Ainu?- perhaps we could introduce a WI I posted yonkies ago. WI the Ainu had 'civilized' and developed a country.

After the Japanese debacle at the Battle of Baekgang, Japan pretty much lost most of its desire to be involved in Korean wars. In fact, Japan built a series of forts because it was worried about an invasion from the Asian mainland, though fortunately, such an invasion did not materialize until six centuries later.

Sounds like the problem is that we need to give the warriors someone to fight. Centuries later, when Hideyoshi wanted to control the samurai in a newly-united Japan, he decided to just throw them at Korea and China (although they never did get to the latter). Heian Japan was a little less warlike than Sengoku Japan, so this doesn't need to be an attempt to outright conquer everyone. Just a little more involvement with other peoples.

Perhaps we can start with Japan building a strong alliance with one of the Korean kingdoms - I think they were already in good terms with Silla in Prince Shotoku's day - and then become militarily involved in Korea protecting their ally's interests. They might later become more strongly involved... perhaps some sort of diplomatic marriage and union?

Paekche might be a better candidate for an alliance than Silla. A few decades after Prince Shotoku's death, Japan fought on Paekche's side against Silla, seemingly motivated by worries about Silla dominating the Korean Peninsula. However, there were prominent Japanese families claiming descent from families in Silla, so if some of those families became more prominent, it could help improve ties between Silla and Japan.

On the other hand, if there's another traumatic equivalent of the Battle of Baekgang, whether it's in support of Silla or Paekche, Japan might decide its energies are better spent at home. Also, the politics in Korea at this time, as well as participation by China, would affect Japan even more, depending on how things play out on the battlefield.

 

[The Sandman]

What about boosting the Ainu and having them pose a major threat on the northern border? Is there any way to plausibly accomplish that?

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

What about boosting the Ainu and having them pose a major threat on the northern border? Is there any way to plausibly accomplish that?

How does this relate to Asuka, Nara, or Heian Japan at all?

At the same time, I'm not sure on details but I don't think the Ainu on Hokkaido were ever strong and organized enough to do that, but the Japanese managed to subdue the Emishi, whose ancestry is still disputed but may have been Ainu. If the Emishi manage to hold out, and maybe unify, there might be a northern threat, but I don't think it's very plausible.

 

[PhilippeO]

What about weakening Taira and Minamoto ? Heian is dominated by Fujiwara (civilian ), Taira (military) and Minamoto(military), each one managed to dominate gov for a time. creating several other powerful houses might weakening the big three and ensuring stronger Imperial government.

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

What about weakening Taira and Minamoto ? Heian is dominated by Fujiwara (civilian ), Taira (military) and Minamoto(military), each one managed to dominate gov for a time. creating several other powerful houses might weakening the big three and ensuring stronger Imperial government.

Well, there was my idea about having the Northern Fujiwara come into prominence in the rest of the country, which could mean three competing military factions. Also, how about Minamoto no Yoshinaka and Minamoto no Yoritomo splitting the Minamoto clan for an extended period of time? This would be four competing military groups weakening each other. That could help the imperial government do better.

 

[FDW]

I think it's doable, but I don't have enough info on the era to really say how.

 

[democracy101]

Both Tang and Silla disintegrated in civil wars, and the dynasty was overthrown. Tang dynasty was less than 3 centuries old and a heir to 4 longloved and numerous shorter dynasties - but Silla dynasty dated from immemorable times - 1000 years, and no serious predecessors. Yet it too was overthrown.

Silla wasn't really centralized until the late 4th century, and it didn't expand outward from the Sobaek mountains and seize the Han River Valley until the mid-6th century. From the mid 4th-late 5th century, most of the conflicts were between Baekje and Goguryeo, which could be somewhat viewed as Silla's predecessors, not to mention the Samhan, and possibly Gojoseon. In fact, Silla's collapse was in part due to regions, claiming to be re-establishments of Baekje in the southwest and Goguryeo in the north, declaring independence as a result of rulers paying less attention to governing the populace.

Koryo Korea civilian givernment was overthrown by military coup in 1170, including deposition of Emperor Uijong. Koryo military acted on their own initiative.

Yes, but the main reason was due to government corruption, in which the ruler and his officials made frequent trips to the countryside instead of paying attention to government matters. This caused the generals to become irritated and eventually enraged at the fact that they were forced to tag along, along with the officials looking down on them. As a result, they decided to stage a coup in 1170, killing/injuring officials and ousting the ruler, replacing him with his younger brother. Future coups in Goryeo by other generals, starting with Choe Chungheon in 1196, were also caused due to corruption by the government, and Yi Seonggye decided to found his own dynasty in 1392 after attempting to install several puppet rulers for a few years.

Although I'm not sure how plausible the situation would be, if Japan centralized in part due to a strong military, similar to how Silla's generals unified most of the peninsula in 676, and how Wang Geon, a general, founded Goryeo in 918 shortly after overthrowing Gung Ye because he was inefficient, then power transfers might become smoother. As Japan was not really centralized until the 6th century, and the Heian era ended in 1185, with a POD several centuries before the military took over, I don't think it would be impossible for a general to establish a new dynasty around 1000-1200, although I may be mistaken.

 

[FDW]

Although I'm not sure how plausible the situation would be, if Japan centralized in part due to a strong military, similar to how Silla's generals unified most of the peninsula in 676, and how Wang Geon, a general, founded Goryeo in 918 shortly after overthrowing Gung Ye because he was inefficient, then power transfers might become smoother. As Japan was not really centralized until the 6th century, and the Heian era ended in 1185, with a POD several centuries before the military took over, I don't think it would be impossible for a general to establish a new dynasty around 1000-1200, although I may be mistaken.

It kind of depends on whether or not there's enough bad blood between the whoever usurps the power of the Yamato court and the Imperial family. The Minamoto certainly could've figured out at a way to legitimize themselves as emperors if they chose to. (Given how they were descendants of the Imperial family)