Can any theortically invade USA?

Baskilisk

Banned
Ask me some specifics. I did lay out some details of how this could happen. I started with much of the world being lined up against America. That's not too far fetched as we've alienated some of our allies and have angered (rightly or wrongly) many others. In such a case that we have few TRUE allies left, Canada may rightly bolt to save its skin.

Central and South American countries have their own reasons to dislike us.
The only problem is, do you really think that all those countrys they've "alienated" would turn against them? We could do a lot worse than the USA as far as superpowers would go. I don't think you'd like a world dominated by China or Russia by comparison.
 
The only problem is, do you really think that all those countrys they've "alienated" would turn against them? We could do a lot worse than the USA as far as superpowers would go. I don't think you'd like a world dominated by China or Russia by comparison.
Yeah, there's a big difference between being a little annoyed by some of the US's foreign policy adventures and being willing to expend the massive amounts of blood and treasure it would take to build up the forces for and eventually launch an invasion of the US.

I think you've also got a good point that even nations less than happy with US hegemony are aware of the fact that Russian or Chinese dominance would probably be no better for their own self-interest, and possibly significantly worse.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Okay...here goes. It's not an invasion, but I always wanted to wargame it out somehow...

Sometime in the near future, the Mexican government is either taken over or bought by narco kingpins who put a General in charge.

There's a massive drought in the American Southwest, causing the ranchers to begin taking more water from irrigation and rivers. Meanwhile, a new damn opens in the US, which also cuts off the flow of water south to Mexico.

The Mexican government lodges a protest with the US, stating that they need the water that the Americans are hoarding. The Americans claim that since the source of the water is on their territory, they can do what they want with it, especially with the irrigation wells that are coming from water tables located in Arizona and Texas.

The Mexican government decides that it cannot stand by while it's northern territories, always rowdy, now rise up in open revolt. They decide to launch a military raid to open the dam (pick one) that they feel has been the primary source of this problem, and has been holding northern Mexico hostage.

There. I smell the B.S. on it, and I wrote it. But would I like to see it written in a believable fashion, or perhaps played out in a wargame? You bet.
The floor is open. Fire away.
 

perfectgeneral

Donor
Monthly Donor
Control from within and without. (Shhh!)

Just how much control do the citizens of the US republic really have over 'their' state and federal apparatus? A country/group with a large capital holding could move enough assets into mainland US businesses to gain control of the political machine. A few wealthy agents that are third or fourth generation US citizens could make this undetectable.

The Soviets tried something like this during the cold war (although they were trying to make the US economy collapse - swimming against the tide rather than diverting it).

Of course the same could be said of a shoe on the other foot. America's Svengali like influence over the world economy looks like economic colonialism to the point of world domination. (checks out the window, turns on the taps and stereo, resumes typing in the Faraday cage)

If the control was by inter/infra national interests rather than the USA, they would still want protection from physical intervention. They would keep a lot of business interests in the US just because it is hard to invade (Defence spending: your tax dollars at work for the good of the economy). American interests have become their interests. Now they are american too.

Geography, economic infrastructure and military preparation are on the USA's side. It would take a prolonged boycott of the dollar to weaken the US to a point where they could be physically invaded. It would take decades, if not centuries. She would not go quietly into the night either. American hold over other counties economies and the ability to 'reach out and touch someone' means that it is only to keep the peace (relatively) that the US government doesn't publicly point out that they pretty well rule the world. Ah, but who for? (adjusts tin foil hat ready to post this at a public internet access point).

;)
 
Im an american but im no idoit ... ok i have a book exacly bout this since the end of the cold war the american military has been cut dramatically the usn only has half of the ships they had in the cold war... we havent had a tank procument program in the first time in a very long time.. the pentagon is spending less and less on new weapons.. given a amount of time and the right allies any country could invade us am not saying mexico or somthin but somthing like that... we would never use a nuclear weapon on own own lands even if it meant occupation. the russians are look for new tanks aircraft and ships all the time give me till 2020 and we will have lose our aircrat betterness against alot of country japan has a program for one by 2025 the russians are to have on by 2012 the south koreans by 2015 the chinese around 2015 and we woint sell the f-22 to our allies but the russians and the chinese will to theirs their own stealth deigns india will have one its not long before we face the third world war and this time i hope not but me might lose...
 

MacCaulay

Banned
I really can't see some Nuclear Holocaust happening. It's just not logical. Tom Clancy used to talk about that alot during interviews on press junkets after he wrote Red Storm Rising. He'd worked with wargamer Larry Bond and they'd come up with this really drawn out lead-up to war that involved a terrorist attack on the Nizhnevartovsk oil terminal, the Soviets deciding they needed to take over Iran to get their oil, then invading Western Europe to knock NATO out of the equation so they could take the Persian Gulf oil fields with an American or Allied response.

The book was great except for the fact that everyone thought the logic behind the war was a little...wonky. And Clancy and Bond agreed. They just couldn't come up with anything better.

There's just no good reason for the Russians and the Americans to start throwing their tanks willy-nilly at each other. I mean, those things are expensive! And besides, as lord of war so eloquently put it...

"we havent had a tank procument program in the first time in a very long time."

If all that stuff gets destroyed, where are we going to get more?
 
@Lord of War, I would like to see a nice USSR-USA World War 3 TL, but I think you need to have an earlier POD than 1989. And if you want to have the war anywhere near the USA, then you need to have a very early POD that increases the USSR Navy, and shrinks the Sino-Soivet split.

A future history scenario I just randomly thought up; After some disaster in the Middle East, most of the oil producing nations in the Persian Guld are severely hurt, and their oil outout drops like a rock(nuclear war?). As a result, both Europe and China begin to rely on Russia as their main oil supplier, and Russisa forms a de-facto hegemoney over Europe and China. Now you need a reason for this power bloc to invade the USA, but creating a bloc that has the resources to invade is the tough part.
 
Well, before the Great War it would theoretically have been possible for Britain to 'invade' the US (or more likely shell a series of coastal cities). The American army was pretty tiny, and the navy would not have the strength to repel a (for whatever reason) truly motivated Royal Navy. Of course, the US could quite quickly build a massive army and repulse the invaders, but I don't believe the question involved any talk of lengthy occupation.
Such a scenario would also require that the 'invasion' came from out of the blue (and therefore no preparations were made for it in the US) and I admit that there was never any chance at all of it happening, but still...
 
i will make a time line

Heres part


After ww2 the Soviet union seeing the more capable navys of other countries inatiate a massive aircraft carrier submarine and among other things build up.... by 1980 they are on par with the united states and nato navys totaling 604 ships in 1989... . in the sixtys not wanting china to drift off into the capitialist camp warms up realtions with the Peoples Republic and begins helping the chinese with theyre nuclear program by 1986 the chinese have icbms.....

Thats a rough timeline anyone want to add?
 
A full on military attack is suicide, in the absolute best case scenario both parties end up back in the stonage.

The only plan of action that has a snowballs chance in hell is infiltration campaigns, destabilizing the country from the inside.

Have we learned nothing from Jericho? ;) This isn't WW2 American society which would fight to the bitter end in every single town, this is the Starbucks Paris Hilton America, the US of the LA Riots - force the civillians to stand on thier own two feet and 3/4 of the country will turn on itself, with Generaal Greed and Admiral Egocentric being your biggest stars.
 
i will make a time line

Heres part

After ww2 the Soviet union seeing the more capable navys of other countries inatiate a massive aircraft carrier submarine and among other things build up.... by 1980 they are on par with the united states and nato navys totaling 604 ships in 1989... . in the sixtys not wanting china to drift off into the capitialist camp warms up realtions with the Peoples Republic and begins helping the chinese with theyre nuclear program by 1986 the chinese have icbms.....

Thats a rough timeline anyone want to add?
Building up a massive Blue-Water fleet is going to leave the Soviet Army in a rather poor state by 1989, not to mention making it much harder to reign in the puppet states like Hungary and Czechoslovakia when they try to rebel...
 

Baskilisk

Banned
Yeah, there's a big difference between being a little annoyed by some of the US's foreign policy adventures and being willing to expend the massive amounts of blood and treasure it would take to build up the forces for and eventually launch an invasion of the US.

I think you've also got a good point that even nations less than happy with US hegemony are aware of the fact that Russian or Chinese dominance would probably be no better for their own self-interest, and possibly significantly worse.
Thank you. This post inspired me to make this one, if your interested.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=2286613&posted=1#post2286613
 
A full on military attack is suicide, in the absolute best case scenario both parties end up back in the stonage.

The only plan of action that has a snowballs chance in hell is infiltration campaigns, destabilizing the country from the inside.

Have we learned nothing from Jericho? ;) This isn't WW2 American society which would fight to the bitter end in every single town, this is the Starbucks Paris Hilton America, the US of the LA Riots - force the civillians to stand on thier own two feet and 3/4 of the country will turn on itself, with Generaal Greed and Admiral Egocentric being your biggest stars.

wasn't "the americans are weak and lazy" one of the arguments the Japanese used to convince themselve that Pearl Harbour was a good idea.

And nothing unites a people like a foreign enemy at the door

Sure, there will be people going rogue, people taking advantage, but 3/4 of the US???
 
A full on military attack is suicide, in the absolute best case scenario both parties end up back in the stonage.

The only plan of action that has a snowballs chance in hell is infiltration campaigns, destabilizing the country from the inside.

Have we learned nothing from Jericho? ;) This isn't WW2 American society which would fight to the bitter end in every single town, this is the Starbucks Paris Hilton America, the US of the LA Riots - force the civillians to stand on thier own two feet and 3/4 of the country will turn on itself, with Generaal Greed and Admiral Egocentric being your biggest stars.

I know that this isn't the same America of WWII, but do you really think the majority of Americans would just sit idly by as their country and homes are invaded? Sure, some people would take advantage of the invasion, or just do nothing, but I think the majority would if not fight openly, at least support those who were. Even apathy to the invader/occupier can be useful even if no direct action is taken. Just look at Iraq. I know I'd be willing to fight to the bitter end, and again.

Anyway, its highly unlikely that any country or alliance of countries would be willing, or even capable of invading the USA. Regardless of all our economic advantages, unless you can control the waves, you can't invade here. The supply lines would be long, and easy prey for the Navy.
 
the japanese told a few more fibs than that, including some about american GIs eating people. Anyway someone must also consider that the US has absolutely no experience of being invaded for nearly 200 years. not because they are powerful (or were powerful throughtout that time) but probably because of their previously isolationist stance. no one had any problems with them coz they didn't piss anyone off.
 

TelClaven

Banned
There was a book I read long ago about US guerillas fighting against Soviet occupation forces in the Rockies and western states.

Theme was the Soviets mistake a radar blur for an American first strike and launch. End results is about a hundred detonations across the US. The Soviets, realizing their mistake, try to make the best of it and demand the US surrender.

The President says that since there wasn't a declaration of war, no state of war existed and that the Soviets were guilty of the most wide scale vandalism in the history of mankind. He refuses to launch back, claiming he'll not be responsible for perpetuating wholesale murder and focuses on rebuilding the US.

Soviets take a breather, then launch a feeble attack on the west coast. The US, seeing it coming, evacuates the west coast almost entirely. Soviet forces make it as far as Phoenix (location of the book setting), before being hammered by US continental forces.

Book wasn't bad, for what it was. A more realistic portrayal of insurgent forces in the Americas than Red Dawn. The whole 'US won't launch back' part was a tad bit unrealistic tho...
 

burmafrd

Banned
The president would be either hung or if lucky ran out of town on a rail.

Just stupid to think that that would not happen.

Red Dawn once you get past the absolute joke of a scenario was actually I think fairly accurate as regards how the fighting would go.

Just always break up when that Cuban soldier sees the hand grenade fall and points at it and yells "GRENADA" instead of getting the hell out of the way.
 
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