Can a victorious Nazi Empire survive the Chinese way ?

Eurofed

Banned
A generation or two? I'm not seeing it happening in just 40 years, 20 is ASB. It would start with alliance eventually moving to economic union to combat the fascist bloc.

Well, there is really no compelling reason to assume that America and the Dominions would not enter an early EU-like economic and military integration right since the fall of Britain or soon afterwards. Europe did so during the Cold War, which would accelerate the schedule considerably. Nationalist antagonism between Canada and America was never as strong as between European nations.

1. Nukes fly: There are federations of city-states the size of Belgium in about 120 years.

Well, sure, mismanagement of a crisis like Cuba or Kippur War may always happen, even if post-Hitler Nazi leadership is not going to be any more irrational than post-Stalin Soviet one.

2. Germany wins: Germany rules the world directly or indirectly, eventually they fall somehow and history continues on.

Theoretically possible but not really any likely, Nazi Europe is going to have a rather crappier education system than the USA bloc, and therefore develop a significant technological and economic gap with the "free world", even if less substantial than the Soviet one.

3. America wins: The economic union and alliance could slowly fall apart after Germany falls, if it doesn't we could eventually see an EU-like confederal structure that eventually federalizes.

I'm not seeing scenario 3 taking less than a hundred years from start to finish.

Again, there is no compelling reason to assume that America and the Dominions do not enter the early phases of the confederal path at the start of the Cold War, nor to assume that the pace of its evolutuon to federation would be any slower than the EU, quite the contrary. Nationalistic antagonisms are lower and political-cultural affinities are higher within the Anglosphere, if the British Empire is cast down, than within continental Europe, and even so, in all likelihood if Britain had not been a part of it, the EU would have already been federalized by 2009 (curses on the bloody tea-sippers :(). I cannot see it taking any more than 40-50 years even if a prudent estimation.
 
Perhaps. I'm not convinced it would happen, but it certainly isn't ASB.

Also, a reason why the remains of the Empire might not want to do the confederal thing right off: they just got out from under the thumb of a superpower and I don't think they'd be too eager to go under the thumb of a different one.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Perhaps. I'm not convinced it would happen, but it certainly isn't ASB.

And on this sensible statement, I think we may all agree. I'm not saying it would necessarily happen, either. All kinds of wacky political butterflies may derail it like they did with early OTL semi-federalization of Western Europe in the 50s.

Also, a reason why the remains of the Empire might not want to do the confederal thing right off: they just got out from under the thumb of a superpower and I don't think they'd be too eager to go under the thumb of a different one.

Such considerations typically only have real weight with the mainstream political opinion when there's not a more threatening third power on the horizon, which is not our case. And frankly, I'm very hesitant to think the loose Commonwealth relationship in the 1930s or its Cold War American confederal equivalent as being under the thumb of anyone. It may ruffle the feathers of radical Quebecker and Afrikaner nationalists, sure (if South Africa does not go Axis instead).
 
Indeed, while I think it wouldn't happen, it would definitely be possible.


I'm American, I don't think of being a US state as "being under the thumb" of Washington. But Canadians might disagree.
 
After reading this ASB statement, I find it really difficult to take the rest seriously.

ASB?
The idea that the Monroe doctrine worked because everyone was scared of the US is a fairy tale.
The main reason it worked is just that no one wanted to try and conquer part of the Americas. Should the mood take them that they would deviate from this (e.g. Francein Mexico) they would willingly ignore it.

And no, full union doesn't naturally follow from being close together. Just look at the OTL Commonwealth.
 
I have jumped over the hole thread, just read the first 4 posts.

What is always forgotten in these discussions, as it seems to me at least, is that the hole group of nazi-leaders were completly insane. Insane in a medicinical meaning (Probably except Goebbels, who was just insane in a psycological way). The 3. Reich was doomed after hitler woiuld have died. None of his successors would have been able to lead the Wehrmacht and the SS - and the rest of the not completly insane German people.
Even a winning Germany would get rid of the Nazis.

In my eyes, it was Hitlers wish to lose and get totally destroyed, so the question is useless beforehand.
 
In my knowledge, it is typically assumed that a victorious Fatherland-like Nazi Empire would have have been doomed to fall the same way as the Soviet bloc in the very long term.

I don't see why. The Soviet bloc fell apart because it was an ethnically diverse empire and, once the force keeping it together was removed, broke apart on ethnic lines. In a "Nazi Empire victorious" scenario such ethnicities, Poles, Ukrainians, Russians etc will have been largely wiped out, or atleast been reduced considerable. Rather than the situation in OTL where portions of Ukraine and the Baltic nations have a large proportion of Russians you will have the situation where, assuming the Nazi's can sustain their proposed population growth, everything from the Rhine to the Volga is likely to be, and certainly intended to be, majority German. The collapse of this state on ethnic lines is thus rendered quite implausable with perhaps a few small regional exceptions. True the experience of a German in Berlin and a German at the limits of the Reich would likely diverge quite alot, but arguably such is the case in the USA.

Ideology is misleading. If "Russia" still commanded the populations and resources of all the territories of the USSR the cold war would have continued on even if Russia had become capitalist or state-capitalist or what have you. A German state with a population of several hundred million people extending the length of Europe will be able to maintain a cold war with the US almost indefinately irrespective of ideology.

Without the capacity to deploy in Western Europe the USA could well find herself confined to the Western Hemisphere and her influence in Asia. With the Meditteranean a lake for German or German puppets they shall easilly force their way into the Middle East and secure its plentiful supplies of oil. How this Nazi Empire will do is debatable, but a ready supply of energy is surely a key factor for any budding economy. Fascist economics, hardly desirable or prudent, are also less dogmatic than the need to interpret Marx. The Nazi Empire adopting similar economic policies to modern day China is fairly likely I also think that the "Nazi education was awful" tends to be overstated. I would offer that the Nazi's were there for ten years, and so there should be considerable evidence for "lost generation" in Germany after their defeat. I do not believe this was the case, or if it is it hasn't been presented.
 
Returning to the original question, I think the answer depends upon whether Germany got into an arms race with the USA. It can be argued that keeping up with USA military/technological development in the cold war arms race bankrupted Britain in the 1960s and then the USSR in the 1990s. The American capitalist system was better able to create wealth than the USSR's communist system for many reasons.

By avoiding an arms race, China has been able to develop their economy at their own speed; and looking at China, there is no reason why large, expansive countries need to get into arms races if they are not facing each other over a concrete wall. So if there are no US forces in Europe and there are no third world hotspots, then perhaps the Third Reich could last decades...

...assuming that countries outside the Third Reich could feel secure??
 

Stephen

Banned
Being a fascist dictartorship the Nazis will have much better options for creating the desired aryan demographic growth than modern countries. They could do things like make grueling national service compulsory without prospect of leaving or promotion until you are maried with children. Public shaming or demotion of couples with the fewest children. Send political disidents who are aryan females to SS stud farms. Such policies would soon policies would soon produce enough population growth to offset the extermination of criminals and other undesirables.
 
Well, meaning the Archangelesk-Astrakan border, you are absolutely right.

Even if they kill/expel all the Slavs in European Russia (although they planned to assimilate a sizable portion)
I must admit its the first time I hear that they planned to assimilate a sizable portion of Russians. Where does this information come from ?
Bohemia-Moravia and Western Poland which they annexed in 1939, and maybe the General Government too, in the 10-25 years they planned
From what I read it was 10-15 years.

It is also kinda hard to tell how many Slav people would undergo Germanization instead of expulsion or extermination, and thus expand the ranks of the "Herrenvolk", but surely some would do. Available sources about GPO tell different percentages were planned for each ethnicity, they range from 50% (Czech) to 30% (Ukrainians) and 25% (Bielorussians). Unfortunately, I have not found the numbers for Poles or ethnic Russians, but I think it is a safe estimate to assume that such percentages would have been similar to Czechs for Poles (Nazi racial planners assumed that a sizable amount of Poles were Slavicized Germanics)

The percentage of Poles to be eliminated was 80-85%-they were not considered on the same level as Czechs, as Nazis viewed them as having less Germanised. Only 3 to 4 milion Poles were considered Polonised Germans. That leaves around 20 milion to eliminate.
I don't think the Russians posssed any significant number of people that were to undergo Germanization. And just one action-the Hunger Plan was to eliminate 20 to 30 milion Russians.

Just Russians and Poles from those two example would give 50 milion casualties. Of course you need to add 11 milion Jews, milions of Ukrainians, Belarussians and other minorities. I wouldn't be surprised if the casualties of Nazi Germany reach up to 100 milion people in the end.

As there is a signifcant Polish,Ukrainian and Jewish diaspora in United States(and in Canada as well) I think we can assume without much doubt that Nazi Germany will be seen as pariah state by USA and British Commonwealth and subjected to similiar treatment as North Korea on world stage in the best option.

The magnitude of such atrocity will probably also motive leaders of free world to engage in stronger alliances and possibly confederation of British Commonwealth with United States. Possibly also support for Pan-Asian confederation based on democratic China and India.

Cut of from external markets and imports Nazi Germany will develop further into a huge concentration camp for conquered nations and initially good well-off life for ethnic Germans(this was already happening in WW2). However the economic system-which was just as in SU based on disregard for private property and state intervention-will be unable to compete with economies of what essentially will be a united world(with very few exceptions). In terms of science and technology Germany will be unable to compete as well-not only due to its ideological barriers but also to limited manpower to educate compared to its opponents.
While is difficult to estimate if it will collapse soon, its certain that German victory in WW2 will lead to impoverished, backward Europe, seen as hellhole on Earth and in eventual end of the Nazi regime(perhaps in late 70s) as provincial equivalent to our Third World countries and at best as South Africa today. At the same time, North America and China(rebuilded as Europe was after WW2 with American money and investments) will be the main powers on the world stage, India behind them.
Ironic isn't it. That the Nazi would fight for glory of their perceived image of Europe, only to make it unimportant on the world stage eventually, and shift the center of civilization to Pacific.
 

Eurofed

Banned
I must admit its the first time I hear that they planned to assimilate a sizable portion of Russians. Where does this information come from ?

It is my reasoning out from the numbers I have found about Ukrainians and Bielorussians, and no foreseeable difference in Nazi racist worldviews between them and Russians. If they planned 25-30% for Ukrainians and Bielorussians, I fully expect similar numbers for Russians proper. If you find sources to the contrary, I welcome them, as I found no hard numbers.

From what I read it was 10-15 years.

Maybe, but assuming at least another decade from optimistic planning hitting hard reality seems prudent, esp. since they would also have to restructure and rebuild whole continental Europe to an empire after a general war, and ajust to superpower status in a budding Cold War with America, while they carry on their racial schemes in the East.

The percentage of Poles to be eliminated was 80-85%

Sources, please ? I found no such numbers for Poles.

-they were not considered on the same level as Czechs, as Nazis viewed them as having less Germanised. Only 3 to 4 milion Poles were considered Polonised Germans. That leaves around 20 milion to eliminate.

Hmm, in the lack of cotnrary evidence, I am more than a bit skeptical that Poles were going to be given a even harsher deal than Ukrainians and Bielorussians. In all plausibility, they were to be deemed "racially closer" to Germans than the latter, with rather ampler opportunity with commingling with Germanics in the centuries past. Maybe not as good as 50% for Czech, but 30-40% seems wholly plausible.

I don't think the Russians posssed any significant number of people that were to undergo Germanization.

As I said, I lack direct evidence for them, but reason from analogy to Ukrainians and Bielorussians.

Of course you need to add 11 milion Jews, milions of Ukrainians, Belarussians and other minorities.

True, although at least for the Jews, I point out that most PoDs that make Nazi victory possible would occur and make their effects felt before the Nazis fully committed to Final Solution in early 1942. Therefore, counter-intuitively, in a Nazi victory world, it is actually more likely that they stick to the original plan, deporting the Jews to some distant corner of Africa or Asia. The Jews would pass through the deportation crucible but the vast majority of them would survive in Madagascar or the like, whileas more dead Slavs would take their place in the mass grave.

In practice, this would marginally help Nazi PR, since the Jewish diaspora in the New World was much more powerful and influential than the Slav one.

As there is a signifcant Polish,Ukrainian and Jewish diaspora in United States(and in Canada as well) I think we can assume without much doubt that Nazi Germany will be seen as pariah state by USA and British Commonwealth and subjected to similiar treatment as North Korea on world stage in the best option.

States that are treated as pariah never are big and tough nuclear superpowers. When the free world gets real notice and evidence of Nazi crimes, there is surely going to be a lot of outcry, fueling the fires of ongoing Cold War, but even as its worst, the Nazi Empire is *always* going to be given the reluctant respect fitting a superpower that even Stalinist Russia and Maoist China got at their worst. They would be too mighty to contemplate otherwise. North Korea is little, poor, backward, and if it really stepped out of bounds, it would be swiftly squished like a bug.

Also, it depends on when America and its allies get really aware of the Slav Holocaust, whether it's still ongoing, or 10, 20, 30 years after the fact. Mass murders discovered decades after the fact carry nowhere the same emotional impact.

The magnitude of such atrocity will probably also motive leaders of free world to engage in stronger alliances and possibly confederation of British Commonwealth with United States.

As I said upthreads, I expect such USA-Commonwealth confederation to happen anyway, as the effect of the geopolitical shock caused by Nazi victory and the downfall of Britain, regardless of Nazi atrocities.

Possibly also support for Pan-Asian confederation based on democratic China and India.

Hmm, such a Pan-Asian confederation looks a bit more utopistic than the Pan-Anglosphere one, for various reasons, not the least that China would be far from and India only peripheral to the Nazi sphere. However, a strong alliance of India with the Anglo Confederation is wholly likely, given that they might have the outskirts of the Nazi Empire at their doorstep. As it concerns China, its dealings with Japan are going to be of much more import, they were suffering their own invasion and genocide ongoing in the 1930s-1940s, but indeed if America supports the Chinese in their efforts to kick the Japanese out and quash the Communists, they shall join the American sphere eagerly.

Cut of from external markets and imports

They are going to be cut off from such only to the degree that the tides of Cold War antagonism and detente determinate, moral outrage is going to be a very limited factor here, history sadly teaches that embargoes motivated by moral outrage never really go anywhere.

However the economic system-which was just as in SU based on disregard for private property and state intervention-will be unable to compete with economies of what essentially will be a united world(with very few exceptions).

Your point about the economic system is wholly wrong. The economic system that the fascists practiced, for all its various faults, was basically a mixed economy, radically different from and much more effiicwent than the Soviet system, and rather more suited to sustain long-term competition with the democratic bloc.

In terms of science and technology Germany will be unable to compete as well-not only due to its ideological barriers but also to limited manpower to educate compared to its opponents.

Notwithstanding their terrible treatment of most Slavs, they are still going to have a fully educated manpower pool from the rest of Continental Europe, maybe Britain as well, and the Germanised Slavs and colonists. This is going to make them roughly the equal of EU plus one-third of Russia. I agree it's nowhere the equal of "Oceania" plus Chindia, but it's not wholly dwarfed, either, esp. since they can freely tap the resources of European Russia, the Middle East, and most of Africa.

While is difficult to estimate if it will collapse soon, its certain that German victory in WW2 will lead to impoverished, backward Europe, seen as hellhole on Earth and in eventual end of the Nazi regime(perhaps in late 70s) as provincial equivalent to our Third World countries and at best as South Africa today.

Hellhole, outside of the Eastern Europe abattoirs, and Third World status are outlandish exaggerations. Fascist economic system was nowhere as crappy as the Communist one, and even late Soviet Russia never fell so low. It is to be expected that they would be able to ensure reasonably satisfying affluence and a basically pleasant lifestyle to loyal citizens of their European core, esp. when stifling ideological mobilization winds down in late decades and if the regime goes the Chinese way and trades consumerist affluence and less intrusion of the state in personal life of loyal subjects for apolitical patriotism.

At the same time, North America and China(rebuilded as Europe was after WW2 with American money and investments) will be the main powers on the world stage, India behind them.
Ironic isn't it. That the Nazi would fight for glory of their perceived image of Europe, only to make it unimportant on the world stage eventually, and shift the center of civilization to Pacific.

This may well happen, but still (post-)Nazi Europe is going to be in rather better shape than (post-)Communist one in the end.
 
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It is my reasoning out from the numbers
So it isn't based on any other then your pure speculation ?
and no foreseeable difference in Nazi racist worldviews between them and Russians
And this view is based on what ?
If you find sources to the contrary, I welcome them, as I found no hard numbers.
You expect me to find sources that will adress your personal theories ?

Maybe, but assuming at least another decade from optimistic planning hitting hard reality seems prudent, esp. since they would also have to restructure and rebuild whole continental Europe to an empire after a general war, and ajust to superpower status in a budding Cold War with America, while they carry on their racial schemes in the East.
So again you discard the actual information we have in favour of personal visions ? There was no great effort required to mass murder Slavic population-the Germans simply would block food to the cities. They were not able to do this during war, but in full control of the areas they would face no challenge to this.
Sources, please ? I found no such numbers for Poles.
Where did you find the numbers for Czechs then ? Strange since t your whole sentence with numbers seems to be copy and paste of Generalplan Ost Wiki article where does numbers are contained. But if you managed to miss them:
http://www.dac.neu.edu/holocaust/Hitlers_Plans.htm
The provisions of the Plan were that 80-85 per cent of the Poles would have to be deported from the German settlement area - to regions in the East. This, according to German calculations, would involve about 20 million people. About 3-4 million - all of them peasants - suitable for Germanization as far as "racial values" were concerned - would be allowed to remain.
In all plausibility, they were to be deemed "racially closer" to Germans than the latter, with rather ampler opportunity with commingling with Germanics in the centuries past. Maybe not as good as 50% for Czech, but 30-40% seems wholly plausible.
"Racially closer " Based on what ? Do you have any proof that Nazi thinkers thought that way ? In any case in 1941 Hitler made decision to eliminate Polish nationa completely. Besides Jews, Poles were the most hated group by Nazis and I have never encountered any Nazi sources describing them as racially close to Germans. Your numbers are already discredited by historical estimates by Nazis given above.
As I said, I lack direct evidence for them, but reason from analogy to Ukrainians and Bielorussian
Ukrainians and Russians were not viewed as the same nation by Nazis, as neither were Czechs and Poles.


Point out that most PoDs that make Nazi victory possible would occur and make their effects felt before the Nazis fully committed to Final Solution in early 1942. Therefore, counter-intuitively, in a Nazi victory world, it is actually more likely that they stick to the original plan, deporting the Jews to some distant corner of Africa or Asia.
You seem to imagine that they were some credible plan that proposed deportation rather then extermination of Jewish population by Nazis. There was none-Jews were being mass murdered from 1939 on mass scale. The emergance of death camps was a step forward, but the beginning of extermination of Jews. What you know as Madagascar plan was typical Nazi euphemism for mass murderer(they often named mass executions and murder as deportations and re-location fully knowing they will lead to death). Anyway to deport Jews to Madagascar would require defeat of Great Britain-which is rather ASB. Likewise the final defeat of SU to allow ethnic cleansing to Siberia is rather unlikely.

The Jews would pass through the deportation crucible but the vast majority of them would survive in Madagascar or the like,
You can't be serious. They were 11 milion Jews in Europe. To claim that somehow majority would survive a deportation of 11 milion people by hateful racist regime tens of thousands of miles to underdeveloped island without any infrastructure or agriculutre to sustain that milions seems absurd and desperate attempt to improve the image of victorious Nazi Germany. The Chechens deported on far less distant area and in much better conditions then Jews would be subjected to suffered losses of over half of the deported numbers. As Madagscar had no infrastructure to sustain such population I would expect maybe 1 milions Jews to arrive with perhaps 10% surviving that ethnic cleansing.

States that are treated as pariah never are big and tough nuclear superpowers.
We never had a state achieving superpower status that rejected the idea of number of nations being human, or declared genocidal war on them. Nazi Germany would be such a state and its relationship to rest of the world would be different then Soviet or Chinese relationship. For all their errors both Soviets and Chinese were actually claiming they try to make world safer and better for ALL people. Nazi Germany would claim they make world safer for German people, while demanding extermination of several nations.
Who just so happen to be the significant portion of electorate in USA.


Also, it depends on when America and its allies get really aware of the Slav Holocaust, whether it's still ongoing, or 10, 20, 30 years after the fact. Mass murders discovered decades after the fact carry nowhere the same emotional impact.
How are you going to hide complete extermination of whole Polish nation and all of Jews in Europe ? And frankly several mass murders do have still impact even 50 years or even more-Homodor, Katyn and so on.
Anyways the mass murderer in Poland in 1939 events was already known in 1941 with London Government publishing the Black Book of Poland detailing all the knowledge given by the underground.
The mass murder of Jews was already known in more and more details in 1943.
They are going to be cut off from such only to the degree that the tides of Cold War antagonism and detente determinate, moral outrage is going to be a very limited factor here, history sadly teaches that embargoes motivated by moral outrage never really go anywhere.
Britain was in state of war with Germany and blockaded Nazi Germany. I doubt the blockade would be lifted to its main enemy. Embargo's do exist(Cuba for example), and blockade will not only have moral backing but also strategic one. Nazi Germany will be a special case as genocidal racist stat bent on exterminating others. Soviet Union officially wanted peacefull relations and never did advocate exterminating milions so it had more open relations then Nazi Germany would.
Your point about the economic system is wholly wrong. The economic system that the fascists practiced, for all its various faults, was basically a mixed economy, radically different from and much more effiicwent than the Soviet system, and rather more suited to sustain long-term competition with the democratic bloc.
Wrong based on what ? The fact that if not for war Germany would collapse economically in late 1939 ? That Soviets were always ahead in industrial production compered to Germans ? That Soviets never excluded population of conqured countries from research, administration, health care of workers and so on ? Which Nazis did. Just the effect of blocking science to Jews, Poles, Russians would have crippling influence on Nazi ability to outcompete anybody in Cold War.



Notwithstanding their terrible treatment of most Slavs, they are still going to have a fully educated manpower pool from the rest of Continental Europe, maybe Britain as well, and the Germanised Slavs and colonists.
And the colonists are not going to change the balance as they from Germany. Germanised Slavs were never intellectual elites-Nazis picked them from peasents, and their number would hardly exceed about 10 milion. All the intellectual elites of Czechs, Poles, Russians were to be exterminated as first step. The rest of continental Europe will be very small-only France, Italy, Croatia, Romania, Slovakia, a couple of other puppet states perhaps. Certainly nothing that can outcompete USA, British Commonwealth, Japan, China and India. Plus the several milions of Russian, Slav and perhaps Jewish refugees that will escape to Allies in Asia.

This is going to make them roughly the equal of EU plus one-third of Russia
It will not make them equal to EU. Central and Eastern Europe will be depopulated with around 5-7 milion Germans in Poland. Czech region will be depopulated. Spain and Portugal could and I believe would remain neutral. The territory of Russia which Nazis would posses would be depopulated as well and posses no real human resource worth.

Hellhole, outside of the Eastern Europe abattoirs
So the extermination of Jews, Roma and Slavs in Western Europe as untermenschen will not happen as in OTL ?

Fascist economic system was nowhere as crappy as the Communist one, and even late Soviet Russia never fell so low.
Soviet Russia never intended to exterminate most of its population. Neither did it envsion changing Soviet republics from industrialised regions into agricultural farmland based on Middle Ages feudal system. Which Nazi Germany did in regards to conquered countries in the East.
It is to be expected that they would be able to ensure reasonably satisfying affluence and a basically pleasant lifestyle to loyal citizens of their European core
Except of course those 100 milion composed of Slavs and Jews, which would be exterminate or in the base case treated like non-human slaves killed for fun when occassion arises right ?
when stifling ideological mobilization winds down in late decades and if the regime goes the Chinese way and trades consumerist affluence and less intrusion of the state in personal life of loyal subjects for apolitical patriotism.
Doubtfull it would happen, since it is the opposite to Nazi ideology and it does not take into account their planned actions. Of course I could argue as well, that perhaps Nazis invent a DNA based virus that will kill majority of Slav and Jewish population remaining on Eurasian continent. Or at least they will try.

This may well happen, but still (post-)Nazi Europe is going to be in rather better shape than (post-)Communist one in the end.
Beyond comment and utterly shocking:mad:. Do you actually believe Soviet Union was depopulating Central European citizens to concentration camps and left only 10% of population in for example Poland arranged in feudal structures of plantations ? Do you believe Soviet Union erased whole cities in Ukraine, Czechoslovakia or Poland ? Or that health-care, education, leisure time was not available to citizens of Soviet controlled states ? Because nothing that communism did to Central and Eastern Europe after 1945 ever approached the level of atrocities comitted and planned by Nazis. A post-Nazi Europe would an Europe destroyed and a mockery of its ideals. An Europe in which 100 milion people were exterminated(if not more) from the face of the Earth and their countries erased as well, along with their cultures. Soviet Union never did that to its puppet states. I am sorry, but the only explanation I can have is that you don't consider Slavs or their states to be European.
This also means that you actually state that elimination of Jews in Europe would be mean it would be in better shape!
 

Eurofed

Banned
I am just having a deja vu and getting the odd impression that a notorious banned Slav chauvinist may have just achieved his new sockpuppet reincarnation. The rethoric certainly looks similar, and if this be the case, I know all too well that debating him would be an utter waste of time and effort. So just in case, I decline an answer. Anyway, even if I'm mistaken about identitities, and I would apologize for that, I'm utterly uninterested in help turning a sensible discussion about the possible socio-political evolution of a Fatherland scenario into a righteous chest-thumping competition about showing the greatest rethorical outrage for the crimes of the Nazis against the Slavs with outlandish claims. While Nazi crimes are unmatched for size and wickedness in history except by Stalinist ones, neither Europe nor the world would turn into a post-apocalyptic wasteland just because the Poles have been wiped off it.
 
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and getting the odd impression that a notorious banned Slav chauvinist may have just achieved his new sockpuppet reincarnation.
If I am "Slav chauvinist"(are Jews who I defended Slavs ?) by pointing out the scale of mass murder and atrocities of victorious Nazi Germany which would influence at least 100 milion people if not more, and condemn to life of slavery those not exterminated, then what should one make of you considering your claims that Nazi victory would result in better Europe then OTL post-Soviet one in which Holocaust and Generalplan Ost was stopped ?
As I wrote before:the only explanation I can have is that you don't consider Slavs or their states to be European.

While Nazi crimes are unmatched for size and wickedness in history except by Stalinist ones, neither Europe nor the world would turn into a post-apocalyptic wasteland just because the Poles have been wiped off it.
And the Jews, and the Russians, and the Roma, and Czechs, and the Belarussians, and the Ukrainians....

Nobody here said about world turning into post-apocalyptic wasteland. A large part of Europe turning into desolate third world area isn't an apocalypse.


While Nazi crimes are unmatched for size and wickedness in history except by Stalinist ones
I don't recall Stalin exterminating whole nations in gas chambers. Even the Soviet republics of SU were light years away in terms of national self-rule then what Nazis did to conquered nations in Central and Eastern Europe. The Soviets comitted crimes, but puting them on equal scale to Nazis is absurd. And of course Stalin never killed as much as Hitler considering the number of victims and time in which it was achieved.
 
Now a Nazi victory makes one consider how Europe looks. Either Western Europe is a collection of puppet states, or annexed. Eastern Europe will no doubt be German, so Germany has a large amount of resources to gather. Add to those resources the dismantling, and transfer of Soviet industry into Germany. The German Riech could have access to a great deal of industry, and raw materials. Soviet oil wells ensure a steady supply, same with the Urkaine granting food.

The real question is how Germany does with companies having free hands, and certain goods produced by the state. We could see Germany having a high standard of living for quite some time. Areas will be poor but tha tis true of all nations.

A major issue though is the radical, and moderate elements with in the Nazi party. Some want a strong Germany, other want a strong world power. The former means the chance for mild reform to occur, and the toning down of certain methods. The later ends in conflict, and ruin as funds are poured into the army over all else.
 
Now a Nazi victory makes one consider how Europe looks. Either Western Europe is a collection of puppet states, or annexed. Eastern Europe will no doubt be German, so Germany has a large amount of resources to gather. Add to those resources the dismantling, and transfer of Soviet industry into Germany. The German Riech could have access to a great deal of industry, and raw materials. Soviet oil wells ensure a steady supply, same with the Urkaine granting food.
.

I'd think its pretty much a given most of western europe would be 'puppets', perhaps even not particularly well controlled ones. The Netherlands would be it to be annexed...Belgium perhaps split with France or it could be possible the Nazis decide to view the lot (and northern France) as a historic German area and take it all.
As I've said fascist Britain and France could be pretty damn scary when it comes to how they treat their empires. Its very unlikely they'll give in to democracy movements and they wouldn't balk at stringing up a few hundred protesters....
They are likely of course to run their already buggered (with war reparations) economies into the ground doing this.
I'd think a united fascist Ireland is likely too.
Scotland isn't though.
 
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