IIRC, wild camels are/were (not sure how many are left these days) specialized for living in dry areas, but they ranged from very hot to very cold areas, so Europe's cold weather wouldn't faze them... I wonder if the heavier rain and snow might not be a problem though; animals suited for cold dry areas don't do well when their hides get soaked...
Surely after a few centuries, breeds of camels could be bred that would be more suited to colder, wetter Northern Europe?
I like the idea that it was the Roman roads that did in the camels prospects in Europe. Perhaps more camels would be a side-effect of a no-Rome TL?
Well, I'm no expert in camel farming, but I'd like to remind that camels failed to catch up not only in Slavic Russia heartland proper (which, it could be argued, has the same "fear of camles" thingy as Medieval Europe), but among Volga nomads too. Successive waves of nomads did have camels when they arrived to Volga basin, but they were inevitably losing it to universal adoption of horse (Kalmyks keep some camels until nowadays, but more as status symbols). So, something must be wrong with camels.
no, because the Romans didn't have access to potatoes, whereas Europe did have access to camels, and never made much use of them.
But I wouldn't discount habit and inclination - you've probably seen the stories about how Scandanavians in Greenland starved to death because they didn't eat fish...
OK, oxen, donkeys and mules are pretty useless as war mounts too. However, they all survived and thrived in different parts of temperate climate area as draft and/or farming animals. Why couldn't camels, if they don't have some serious flaw not revealed by this discussion?Nothing is wrong with them as a transport animal, but there is plenty wrong with them as a war mount.
Habit and inclination are plenty overrated. More often than not nations either adopt significant improvements in "ways of doing things" or lose to those who do. Besides, this argument does not work for Volga Nomads. Most of them arrived on those shores with camels in their train and almost all of them lost those beasts. You have to also take into accoun that Volga doesn't have that many navigable tributaries in it's middle and lower basin, so a lot of local trade was overland, so "waterway" answer doesn't really explain anything. "Roman Roads" answer has similar flaw for Mitteleuropa. There were no Roman roads there and riverine system leaves much to be desired, but neither Poles nor Czech nor Hungarians nor Germans adopted camels as trade movers.But I wouldn't discount habit and inclination
can camels be hitched to a plow or wagon? Wagons might be workable, but plows? Camels seem kinda tall and spindly, compared to a draft horse....
OK, oxen, donkeys and mules are pretty useless as war mounts too. However, they all survived and thrived in different parts of temperate climate area as draft and/or farming animals. Why couldn't camels, if they don't have some serious flaw not revealed by this discussion?
Habit and inclination are plenty overrated. More often than not nations either adopt significant improvements in "ways of doing things" or lose to those who do. Besides, this argument does not work for Volga Nomads. Most of them arrived on those shores with camels in their train and almost all of them lost those beasts. You have to also take into accoun that Volga doesn't have that many navigable tributaries in it's middle and lower basin, so a lot of local trade was overland, so "waterway" answer doesn't really explain anything. "Roman Roads" answer has similar flaw for Mitteleuropa. There were no Roman roads there and riverine system leaves much to be desired, but neither Poles nor Czech nor Hungarians nor Germans adopted camels as trade movers.
I'm not sure where you're getting all this Volga nomad with Camels thing, but if they ended up in the middle of nowhere with only horses readily available, then that's an easy explanation. If there are no camel breeders around, it's too expensive to order them from Arabia. Also, mail-order catalogues hadn't been developed, nor had the internet. Now you could just go to camelsgalore.com.
You are wrong. Click here to see wagon-pulling camel (reproduction from Olearius' Map of Volga; for all you 1632 fans out there, yes, that Olearius).Camels can't be hitched to plows or wagons.
You could not be more wrong as far as SUVs vs. smaller cars are concerned. I owned and/or operated shitload of passenger vehicles of very different sizes and body styles. Sedans, wagons, SUVs, minivans, ranging in size from miserable (Pegout 106 and Russian knock-off of original Fiat 600) to excessive (Chev Suburban) and I can honestly tell you that nothing beats large tall vehicle as family hauler. European wagons are real bitches, as far as comfort of loading/unloading is concerned, hatchbacks and sedans are losing big time in available cargo volume. So, taking into account absence of punishing gas taxes and registration fees (you pay the same small yearly fee for Smart and Suburban in most NorthAm jurisdictions), owning and operating "tall wagons" makes a lot of sence for a family. However, it only took a year of punishing gas prices (although I do suspect that a lot of Europeans would not really call $1 per liter "punishing") for sales of SUVs to drop through the floor and sales of compact cars to go through the roof. So, your car-related example clearly proves that inclination plays second fiddle to economic advantages/disadvantages of certain behaviour.Habit and inclination do matter, especially if there is a large capital outlay required to make a change. Why do Americans buy SUVs in such large numbers? Inclination.
I'm not sure where have you got your comparative data on buffalo vs. cow cost-wise, but buffalo meat is generally more expensive in Canadian supermarket than organic beef. Would buffalo be cheaper to raise than organic cow, there are very good chances that buffalo meat would be cheaper (unless there's price-fixing buffalo mafia running the business).Buffalo is way healthier than beef, cheaper to raise, and better for the environment. Why no changeover?
Well, there's a breed named "Kalmyk Camel" I guess you would be able to figure out where Kalmyks live. And, BTW, their camel herds were ever-decreasing in 18-19th centuries, losing to horses and oxen.I'm not sure where you're getting all this Volga nomad with Camels thing
There's no such thing as "middle of nowhere with horses readily available". Successive waves were coming to Volga with camels (Kypchaks, Tatars, Kalmyks) and they were losing camels again and again. Besides, old Russian accounts of life on Lower and Middle Volga (Saratov and down the river) are chock-full of references to "camel caravans coming from Left Bank" and none of (previously camel-owning) Turkic inhabitants of Volga region re-introduced those animals to their households for centuries., but if they ended up in the middle of nowhere with only horses readily available, then that's an easy explanation.
Russia being very short on good roads is somewhat legendary thing and you are trying to convince me that sturdy animals with fantastic feed-to-load ratio and ability to eat anything, which could navigate any open space, would be ignored by economy of the country which hired thousands of nomads used to camels. Well, I'm not convinced, to put it mildly...A camel is more expensive than a donkey, ox, or mule, and if you don't need a huge load transported over a long distance then there isn't really a pressing need for them.
But what would really be interesting, is to have them brought over to the Americas. They'd do great in the Argentinian pampa, the Altiplano, not to mention the colder regions of the Western US.
I wonder if it isn't camels' notorious bad tempers that kept them from being widely used in Europe. They're well known for being grouchy, spitting, and biting. Plus, they tend to balk when urged to cross streams. Sure, mules can be stubborn, but camels outdo them in that. It's worth putting up with all that if you need to move goods across a vast dry desert, but if you don't, why bother? For another example, back in the really ancient times, people in the middle east tried to domesticate onagers (a type of wild burro), which were also notorious for being bad tempered... they dropped them in a flash when they got their hands on regular mules and horses...
You are wrong. Click here to see wagon-pulling camel (reproduction from Olearius' Map of Volga; for all you 1632 fans out there, yes, that Olearius).
You could not be more wrong as far as SUVs vs. smaller cars are concerned. I owned and/or operated shitload of passenger vehicles of very different sizes and body styles. Sedans, wagons, SUVs, minivans, ranging in size from miserable (Pegout 106 and Russian knock-off of original Fiat 600) to excessive (Chev Suburban) and I can honestly tell you that nothing beats large tall vehicle as family hauler. European wagons are real bitches, as far as comfort of loading/unloading is concerned, hatchbacks and sedans are losing big time in available cargo volume. So, taking into account absence of punishing gas taxes and registration fees (you pay the same small yearly fee for Smart and Suburban in most NorthAm jurisdictions), owning and operating "tall wagons" makes a lot of sence for a family. However, it only took a year of punishing gas prices (although I do suspect that a lot of Europeans would not really call $1 per liter "punishing") for sales of SUVs to drop through the floor and sales of compact cars to go through the roof. So, your car-related example clearly proves that inclination plays second fiddle to economic advantages/disadvantages of certain behaviour.
I'm not sure where have you got your comparative data on buffalo vs. cow cost-wise, but buffalo meat is generally more expensive in Canadian supermarket than organic beef. Would buffalo be cheaper to raise than organic cow, there are very good chances that buffalo meat would be cheaper (unless there's price-fixing buffalo mafia running the business).Well, there's a breed named "Kalmyk Camel" I guess you would be able to figure out where Kalmyks live. And, BTW, their camel herds were ever-decreasing in 18-19th centuries, losing to horses and oxen.
There's no such thing as "middle of nowhere with horses readily available". Successive waves were coming to Volga with camels (Kypchaks, Tatars, Kalmyks) and they were losing camels again and again. Besides, old Russian accounts of life on Lower and Middle Volga (Saratov and down the river) are chock-full of references to "camel caravans coming from Left Bank" and none of (previously camel-owning) Turkic inhabitants of Volga region re-introduced those animals to their households for centuries.
Russia being very short on good roads is somewhat legendary thing and you are trying to convince me that sturdy animals with fantastic feed-to-load ratio and ability to eat anything, which could navigate any open space, would be ignored by economy of the country which hired thousands of nomads used to camels. Well, I'm not convinced, to put it mildly...
Buffalo meat is more expensive because it isn't produced much - my point is that it's cheaper to produce Buffalo per pound than beef - probably most of the cost increase in your area is due to scale and travel distance.