Caliph in Constantinople: Hellenized Islamic World ATL

[hasdrubal barca]

Hellenzied Islamic World

Hellenized Islamic World

The Arab conquests of the 7th century, brought the Islamic world into contact with Hellenistic culture. As Islamic armies swept into Egypt and Syria, the Byzantines left behind strong elements of Greek math, science, and most importantly philosophy. The Muslim reaction to these Greek influences was mixed. Arab philosophers such as Averroes and the Mu'tazilites embraced Greek reason. By contrast the followers of Al- Ghazali and the Ash'arites began a campaign of deHellenization. During the 8th century the Mu'tazlites achieved supremacy under the patronage of Abbasid Caliph Al-Ma'mun and his immediate successors. This however did not last long and the Ash'arites gained power and would remain in full control to this day.

This then brings us to the question of what if the Islamic World embraced Hellenism? How would this have been accomplished?

Averroes being more popular then Al-Ghazali?

A stronger Abbasid Dynasty that fully embraces the Mu'tazilites?

Byzantine Victory at Battle of Manzikert in 1071? Byzantine resurgence might help the spread of Hellenism. Seljuk Turk leaders Alp Arslan and Nizam al-Mulk were also big supporters of the Ash'ari.

Neo-Mu'tazilite movement?

 

[hasdrubal barca]

All ideas and comments welcome. If anyones interested i might turn this into a TL.

 

[Orisha91]

I'd be interested in seeing how this plays out as a TL.

 

[rjd1997]

So would I!

 

[Napoleon IV]

I fourth this sentiment.

 

[Napoléon Caesar Augustus]

What if the Sassanids manage to hold against the Arabs and remain unconquered while the Romans collapse entirely and Constantinople is taken by the Caliph? In OTL, Persian culture had a massive influence on Islamic culture. If you replace Persia with the ERE as the "high culture" state within Islamic borders, it will likely have a similar influence.

 

[hasdrubal barca]

What if the Sassanids manage to hold against the Arabs and remain unconquered while the Romans collapse entirely and Constantinople is taken by the Caliph? In OTL, Persian culture had a massive influence on Islamic culture. If you replace Persia with the ERE as the "high culture" state within Islamic borders, it will likely have a similar influence.

That is an interesting idea. Persian culture and perhaps some Nestorian influences blending with Islamic world. I'm tempted to have both the Byzantine and Sassanid Empires survive in a limited form. Complete conquest of the Byzantines would give them the most contact with Hellenistic Culture possible.

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

Arabs as Byzantine mercenaries spreading their religion peacefully through the empire? And helping Rome to defend Italy against the Langobards?

 

[Essam]

What if the Sassanids manage to hold against the Arabs and remain unconquered while the Romans collapse entirely and Constantinople is taken by the Caliph? In OTL, Persian culture had a massive influence on Islamic culture. If you replace Persia with the ERE as the "high culture" state within Islamic borders, it will likely have a similar influence.

This has a lot of potential. It is often really underestimate just what a persianate society the upper echelons of Muslim empires have been due the tribal/settled (Mecca) culture of the first Muslims coming in contact with and shortly thereafter ruling Persia as their first proto-state-esque entity.

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

This has a lot of potential. It is often really underestimate just what a persianate society the upper echelons of Muslim empires have been due the tribal/settled (Mecca) culture of the first Muslims coming in contact with and shortly thereafter ruling Persia as their first proto-state-esque entity.

But why should only Persia do better, while Rome is in a much worse situation than OTL?

 

[Essam]

But why should only Persia do better, while Rome is in a much worse situation than OTL?

That's a rather loaded statement.

 

[catconqueror]

What if the Sassanids manage to hold against the Arabs and remain unconquered while the Romans collapse entirely and Constantinople is taken by the Caliph? In OTL, Persian culture had a massive influence on Islamic culture. If you replace Persia with the ERE as the "high culture" state within Islamic borders, it will likely have a similar influnce.

No it won't work i guess. Look at egyptian culture for example. Where are they? Gone. Persians might influence Islamic culture. But they are much closer to Muslim power base. A conquest of Greece will be short due to rebelion.

Even if they some how managed to hold Greece and asia minor. They will end up like the ottomans. Influenced by Greek culture? Yes. But not "Greek" enough to be considered hellenized.

My idea is an independent muslim power based in Antioch. Led by a converted greek. Or maybe a converted greek dynasty on the Abbasid throne

 

[hasdrubal barca]

But why should only Persia do better, while Rome is in a much worse situation than OTL?

Byzantines basically were defeated by the Arabs they just managed to hold Constantinople:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Constantinople_(626)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Constantinople_(674–78)

Persians seem to have had a better chance at victory. Both Qadisiyyah and Nahāvand may have turned out differently.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_al-Qādisiyyah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nahāvand

Even though they were defeated on the battlefield Persian influence never really went away. Mawali Persians played a prominent role during Abbasid period. Examples below:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Muslim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babak_Khorramdin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buyid_dynasty

 

[Caesar Biden]

One of the best ways this might be possible would be a complete Arab conquest of the Roman Empire. If Anatolia, the Balkans, Southern Italy, North Africa, the Levant, Syria, Egypt AND all those Mediterranean islands are absorbed, that's a huge influx of Greek/Greek-influenced subjects. I could see the Caliphate moving its capital to Constantinople (Not only is it now the largest city, but the prestige of managing from the Queen of Cities alone gives good reason to do so) and gradually adopting more Hellenic ideas. We can assume a good minority of Greeks convert to Islam upon conquest, whether from opportunism, belief that Christianity really has failed, or a combination thereof. As Muslim conquests spread into Europe, the Caliphate starts adopting a Greek administration to manage most of their Western territories, and with it many Hellenic ideas. In time, Hellenism becomes a fundamental part of Islam.

Alternatively, a much stronger Roman Empire that holds parts of Syria and has direct influence over affairs in Baghdad or Damascus could lead to a lot of cultural influence by Hellenism. Either way sounds very interesting.

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

That's a rather loaded statement.

What? Loaded?

 

[hasdrubal barca]

Or maybe a converted greek dynasty on the Abbasid throne

Yeah, I still think the best chance is for an Abbasid Dynasty which is a more powerful, and more influenced by Greek culture, then OTL.

 

[hasdrubal barca]

One of the best ways this might be possible would be a complete Arab conquest of the Roman Empire. If Anatolia, the Balkans, Southern Italy, North Africa, the Levant, Syria, Egypt AND all those Mediterranean islands are absorbed, that's a huge influx of Greek/Greek-influenced subjects. I could see the Caliphate moving its capital to Constantinople (Not only is it now the largest city, but the prestige of managing from the Queen of Cities alone gives good reason to do so) and gradually adopting more Hellenic ideas. We can assume a good minority of Greeks convert to Islam upon conquest, whether from opportunism, belief that Christianity really has failed, or a combination thereof. As Muslim conquests spread into Europe, the Caliphate starts adopting a Greek administration to manage most of their Western territories, and with it many Hellenic ideas. In time, Hellenism becomes a fundamental part of Islam.

Alternatively, a much stronger Roman Empire that holds parts of Syria and has direct influence over affairs in Baghdad or Damascus could lead to a lot of cultural influence by Hellenism. Either way sounds very interesting.

You really summarized this well I'm thinking it over.

 

[St. Just]

Remove the "Arabic is the sole language of revelation" and have Islam spread through Greek, and you've made it even easier. Most of Christianity's early theology was debated/conceived in Greek, and if people can still use Greek for religion, that makes conversion easier.

A "Western" Islam probably ends up looking much more Christian; I could see folks seeing it as the next "evolution" of Christianity. If the theology is loose enough early on, I could see some deviations--perhaps Christ is the Messiah but Muhammad still needed to deliver his message? Flexibility on the alcohol issue? Replacing the Holy Spirit with the Virgin Mary? So many possibilities.

Another major influence could be the development of Muslim organization; an elected, more episcopal Caliph rather than the inherited Caliphate of the Sunnis and Shia. A lot of possibilities here.

And why not have Persia just be conquered later? It took a while for Rome to lose all of itself, just have Persia be conquered, say, in the 10th or 11th centuries.

Islam--the new Alexander the Great. And filthy northern Europe can stay Christian and Latin and whatnot.

 

[Orisha91]

As for ways to expand into Roman territory how about through Khalid ibn al-Walid.

Maybe have a figure to impressed or awed by Khalid hint to him to be more watchful of what he does to deprive Omar of the ammunition he needs to dismiss Khalid from service.

Maybe make him more conscious of his position and influence?

Might help if he can find ways to penetrate past Armenia and then head back west, testing defenses there.

 

[hasdrubal barca]

As for ways to expand into Roman territory how about through Khalid ibn al-Walid.

Maybe have a figure to impressed or awed by Khalid hint to him to be more watchful of what he does to deprive Omar of the ammunition he needs to dismiss Khalid from service.

Maybe make him more conscious of his position and influence?

Might help if he can find ways to penetrate past Armenia and then head back west, testing defenses there.

This would make a good POD. However i'm not sure they could maintain any gains in Walid's time due to First Fitna's that followed soon after.