Californian Empire

I know this will sound utterly ridiculious, but,

An Independent Californa, composing of Baja California, California, Nevada, Washington, Oregan, and half of Idaho, created and lead by...
(are you ready for this?)
Emperor Norton I, Emperor of California, Ally of Mexico. (in this timeline, he is not crazy, but a very likeable, driven individual.

Any thoughts?
 
A sane person with such ambitions in the 1850's would be arrested, charged with treason, convicted and imprisoned. Sorry, but this fanciful scenario is impossible, and belongs in the ASB forum.
 
I know this will sound utterly ridiculious, but,

An Independent Californa, composing of Baja California, California, Nevada, Washington, Oregan, and half of Idaho, created and lead by...
(are you ready for this?)
Emperor Norton I, Emperor of California, Ally of Mexico. (in this timeline, he is not crazy, but a very likeable, driven individual.

Any thoughts?

It has been done before, but I also have a warm spot for Norton I. Not impossible or ASB, it just has to do with timing - and probably political changes in the US. It wouldn't been too outlandish to have a North American continent divided by the US, Republic of Texas and the California Empire - maybe even a Southern Confederacy.
 
You have more chance of making a realistic proposal working with Lamar's vision for Texas, which was to see it stretch across New Mexico to California

You could work with Britain and France wanting to see Texas remain independent of the USA, have someone other than Polk elected president, and have Franco-British pressure on Mexico result in Mexican recognition of Texan independence (which it finally assented to in a bid to avert US annexation)

Once stabilised and recognised, then Texas could over time grow until it can meet Mexico on equal grounds. Maybe another federalist war erupts, Texas can ally with Coahuila, Nova Leon etc, and then make a play for New Mexico, whilst perhaps leading a fillibustering expedition of its own into California

One wonders whether a second Lamar ministry would so support the Texas Navy that it could get a ship around into the Pacific ?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
It has been done before, but I also have a warm spot for Norton I. Not impossible or ASB, it just has to do with timing - and probably political changes in the US. It wouldn't been too outlandish to have a North American continent divided by the US, Republic of Texas and the California Empire - maybe even a Southern Confederacy.

so you're saying if he tried to start it early, say, around the Bear flag Revolt, this may have a chance?
 
so you're saying if he tried to start it early, say, around the Bear flag Revolt, this may have a chance?

The Bear Flag Rebellion is a definite starting point, but Norton himself doesn't arrive in San Francisco until much later. I've always been in favour of using the background story provided in R. Talsorian Games' Castle Falkenstein. The supplement titled 'Six Guns and Sorcery' deals strictly with North America and is basically a travelogue thru the composite nations.

In California, IIRC, the Bear Flag Rebellion occurs by John C. Fremont establishes an independent republic which is dominated by an oligarchy of individuals - much like California was historically (ie. Huntington, Stanford, Crocker, etc.). Fremond serves as President for Life for several years until his unfortunate death (in the game he's murdered). Since the oligarchy doesn't trust each other they basically approach Norton to run for office with use him as a puppet. Fate intervenes and the major members of the oligarchy are killed, with Norton surviving and proving to be lucid enough to govern well. There is eventually a plebicite and an empire is declared with Norton as its Emperor.

Thats the basic outline from the game and I'm not even including Kit Carson as his Minister of War. California is a fairly liberal country for the era with Blacks, Asians, Latinos and Native Indians equally participating. It also helps that it is sitting on huge reserves of gold and silver.

For my ATL I've included Norton buying Alaska from Russia and the Bear Flag Empire eventually including British Columbia and the Yukon.
 
That is set in a universe where Norton is equally "eccentric" as he is in the OTL, though. Its just that he got very, very lucky.

For a more grounded Norton, I think a similar approach could be made. IE, rich robber barons want to secede California from the Union, appoint Norton as figure head, robber barons die, and people keep Norton because they like him. But a less crazy Norton would be more influential as an actual monarch than someone the people just like and appoint to a position with no power (or at least I think Castle Frankenstein had Norton as just a figure head emperor).

Alternatively, you can be more direct and have Norton lead some populist movement against the wealthy capitalist robber barons who are controlling the country and the supposed corruption of the current political parties and so on, and eventually take power that way. Norton was exceedingly popular in the OTL. If he could funnel that popularity from tourist attraction interest into a political following based on a platform of protecting Western interests, he could have taken power and seceded. The western states were also distant from Union control in many ways so an event such as the Civil War could be an opportunity for a California Empire to secede. I don't know if a less insane Norton could form a monarchist army of the people to take power, but anything's possible I guess. Or heck, just have him do everything he did in the OTL with a more realistic, grounded face on it (returns to San Francisco, rails against all the ills, gains a following, popularity spreads, and so on until he gains power through election or revolution or something). Either way, I think someone could do a far better timeline than I'm attempting at here.

Of course some eccentricity would be nice once he took California, such as him believing that someone he was the rightful heir to the United States (remember, he declared himself Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico) and that it was his destiny and right to take over those lands. Sort of a alternate direction Manifest Destiny.
 
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Alternatively, you can be more direct and have Norton lead some populist movement against the wealthy capitalist robber barons who are controlling the country and the supposed corruption of the current political parties and so on, and eventually take power that way. Norton was exceedingly popular in the OTL.

I would go with something like this, that Norton does make his millions on the rice trade and does go into government. At least in those days you could buy your way into government. He makes friends and comes across as populist senator within a corrupt government. I would include a less than friendly relationship with the US, probably thanks to California providing Winchester repeating rifles to the recently independent Confederates. The Secret Service attempts to launch a coup which does kill the Californian President and much of his cabinet. The Republican Army is forced to step in and declare martial law in San Francisco and eventually turns power over to a Provisional Government headed by Norton.
 
Or, why assume that the California Empire would have to conform with the then old world ideas?

Norton IS as nutty as a fruitcake. The Citizenry love him. He makes a great figure head to a very Laissez faire nation. With all that the Barbary Coast was, attracting wealthy individuals as well as free thinkers. It is far enough away, initially, from any concerted effort from powerful enough polities to defend itself. Mexico has to worry about the US to it's north, and if the Californios are not to beligerant in trade deals with all comers, the US could accept an independent California as an trading partner.

Think, you could have such wonderful philosphers come in as Samuel Clemens, R.W. Emerson, perhapd even Marx and Engels. And, with a little tweaking, you could change the xenophobia of the early whites into accepting any who come and participate. The Wild West on Steroids.


Go further, and you could have that Libertarian Wet Dream of organized anarchy.............. Now it is truly going ASB...............:eek:
 
Russia somehow has better success in holding on its various settlements on the American west coast, and actually manages to hold on to California-- and even gains some land from Spain/Mexico during the various wars and indepndence stuggles. setting a tradition of a Tsar ruling California. Norton hearing of California's wealth, emigrates there. As per OTL, Norton is a businessman, but ITTL he becomes very successful and monopolistically controls a lot of California's resources. However, he remains likeable as per OTL and is seen as a benefactor to California's poor. Russia attempts a "Russification" campaign in California like it did in the rest of the empire-- to the great dislike of english- and spanish- speaking population. Since Californianans are used to be ruled by a monarch, and split between English, Spanish and Russian speakers, and between agrarian serf-owning landowners and the industrial/mining class, the Californians believe that they need their own "Emperor" to prevent a civil war and a possible takeover by the US or Mexico. Norton, leveraging his influence and charisma declares himself the Tsar of California-- much to the support of the people he has won over with his Philanthropy.
 
Russia somehow has better success in holding on its various settlements on the American west coast, and actually manages to hold on to California-- and even gains some land from Spain/Mexico during the various wars and indepndence stuggles. setting a tradition of a Tsar ruling California. Norton hearing of California's wealth, emigrates there. As per OTL, Norton is a businessman, but ITTL he becomes very successful and monopolistically controls a lot of California's resources. However, he remains likeable as per OTL and is seen as a benefactor to California's poor. Russia attempts a "Russification" campaign in California like it did in the rest of the empire-- to the great dislike of english- and spanish- speaking population. Since Californianans are used to be ruled by a monarch, and split between English, Spanish and Russian speakers, and between agrarian serf-owning landowners and the industrial/mining class, the Californians believe that they need their own "Emperor" to prevent a civil war and a possible takeover by the US or Mexico. Norton, leveraging his influence and charisma declares himself the Tsar of California-- much to the support of the people he has won over with his Philanthropy.

Unfortunately, Russia would actually have to have some sort of major settlement, which it didn't. Also the Spanish and then Mexicans purposefully extended their claims in Alta California to block further Russian claims.
 
Unfortunately, Russia would actually have to have some sort of major settlement, which it didn't. Also the Spanish and then Mexicans purposefully extended their claims in Alta California to block further Russian claims.

Yeah, but there might be ways to get it. Maybe Russia does better against China and gains more ports and subject populations on the Asian Pacific- Russian Korea perhaps? with conquered Koreans indentured and transported to the new world? That way they'd have more people and more means to transport them to the new world than OTL. But this borders on Russowank-- unless the Russians get their due later.
 
It has been done before, but I also have a warm spot for Norton I. Not impossible or ASB, it just has to do with timing - and probably political changes in the US. It wouldn't been too outlandish to have a North American continent divided by the US, Republic of Texas and the California Empire - maybe even a Southern Confederacy.
Yes it would: North America is remarkably unsuited for being carved up. Demographics and geography work against it, as well as economics and mass. The central US is too flat to resist Eastern expansion, the South is too weak against the North, and the West doesn't have the population to resist re-control by the rest.
 
Norton I of California and Mexico

Can't do it. But I can arrange for an Emperor Norton. Having California include much US turf is right out, because it'd be a small country trying to beat a big country at war. Nor can I see how to realistically politically "liberate," say, Iowa, given the OTL reaction to such tries and the contentedness of most states. I can give it contemporary Mexico, though - a good-sized piece of turf by any standards.

Norton's wiki entry reminds me of Austin's beloved Leslie.

He arrives in 1843 instead of 1849. Instead of getting involved in business as in OTL, he decides to get in the rebellion business. Notice that his resources alone were substantial, $8Mish in contemporary $$$. He organizes a rebellion in San Francisco, corresponds with Sonoma rebels; the rebellion happens in 1845 instead of 1846 as OTL, so it comes before the Mexican-American War.

The US recognizes the Bear Flag Republic, just as it recognized the Republic of Texas, so it's a separate country.

Once the war's won, California organizes as a Consitutional Empire, with William Ide serving as the first President, and Norton I as Emperor; Norton's duties are the same the King's in his native land. Norton convinces California to stay independent because it'd be harder for commands to reach California from DC than from London to the 13 Colonies was, so it can hope to conquer Mexico, and this way California can take best advantage of its Pacific location. The Compromise of 1850 uses Arizona to pair with Texas instead. Once railroads show up, they do a base swap deal with the US to keep them from looking TOO hungrily at the Empire.

Like Texas and Mexico, there's enough bad feeling to support plenty of fighting. In Mexico, they still tell bad kids that the Rangers will get them, bwahaha. But neither the Empire nor Mexico are part of bigger associations that don't want war, and so it goes on, rematch after rematch, until there's about as much left of Mexico as Rome left of Carthage.
 
The easiest way to gain population in California is to look at the establishment of Monterey, California by the Spanish. I've been a proponent of this POD on this board for years. Monterey, the capitals of Old California, was originally identified as a good harbor in 1602/03 and settlement was recommended, but delayed nearly 167 years.

Interestingly, the bulk of this POD came from an old issue of The Californian Geographer. Basically, Monterey Bay is nearly in direct line with the transpacific routes used by the Manila Gold Galleons. It would be the best place for them to make landfall and replenish their water. The Spanish import Filipinos to help flush out the settlement. On a good day the southern end of San Francisco Bay is visible from the mountains north of Monterey. The Spanish move operations to Yerba Buena and a larger town develops on the San Francisco peninsula. Explorers range out from the Bay and eventually discover gold, about 1700 lets say, population booms.

By the 1800s there is a sizeable Californio population which has sort of stagnated until the arrival of the first Americans via the overland route. White businesses begin to flourish and eventually being talk of revolution against Mexico City arises. Perhaps its Santa Ana's anti-American policies or the Californio's finally realize that they aren't getting their money's worth from Mexico. Fremont's visit proves to the fuse that lites the powder keg, but the Americans can't run the whole show by themselves and independence as a sovereign nation is decided upon.

The white oligarchy gains greater control of the economy and keeps marginalizing the Latino majority since they control the military. Their control of California eventually falls like a house of cards and Norton becomes president of the 'Second Republic', soon to be Empire of California.
 
The easiest way to gain population in California is to look at the establishment of Monterey, California by the Spanish. I've been a proponent of this POD on this board for years. Monterey, the capitals of Old California, was originally identified as a good harbor in 1602/03 and settlement was recommended, but delayed nearly 167 years.

I have heard of this POD before and also really like it, but I have been reading some interesting information about the first mission settlements in California. It seems to me like the california area was extremely hard it by disease and I think this set Spanish development backwards a lot. So if in stead the natives in california were a bit more resistant and say at some point get out of the demographic spiral and perhaps stabilise, like the aztecs or incans. Perhaps spain would put more missionary focus on the area. Then later when the russians seem to threaten the area. The Spanish would build some forts as OTL. In the long run California might turn into a much more spanish or mexican in nature. The good things about both these PODs is that it gives California almost 200 years to develop.
 
Good points about California. However, I think the overall problem is that the native indians that lived here were predominately at the subsistance level sort of living. Most of the length of the California coast is predominately Mediterranean in climate so in certain areas once a steady means of irrigation is discovered some form of agriculture should take root. The bringing in of Filipinos will provide a reliable work force that would be able to harvest and fish. The settlement in Alta California may actually be dependent for months on foodstuffs brought in from the Philippines.
 
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