Caesar Defeated at Alesia...But Remains Alive

I always come across Alesia threads, and almost all of them seem to start with the assumption that Caesar will be dead. Let's say Rome suffers a serious and disastrous defeat at Alesia, say, Gergovia times 10. Caesar's army is completely shattered, but he limps away with what's left back to Narbonensis...

Then what? Is his term in Gaul basically cooked, as far as the senate is concerned? Can Pompey really save his goose, and would he want to? Assuming Caesar is forced to return back to Rome, could he survive the charges being brought against him or will he be forced into exile? Could the situation perhaps still be salvaged in Gaul, or is it beyond recovery?
 
Rome will form another army and invade again and be even more brutal. At this point in history Rome did not suffer defeats. They would keep coming back again and again knowing eventually they'll overwhelm the barbarians.

It might be the end for Caesar though. Unless he can convince Pompey and Crassus that it wasn't his fault.
 
Rome will form another army and invade again and be even more brutal. At this point in history Rome did not suffer defeats. They would keep coming back again and again knowing eventually they'll overwhelm the barbarians.

It might be the end for Caesar though. Unless he can convince Pompey and Crassus that it wasn't his fault.
I'm not entirely convinced. I'll actually quote Errnge from a few months ago on the topic:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=336774&highlight=gaul

here's a recent thread discussing the topic.

consensus of people who don't know what they're talking about: Rome Conquers ALL!!!!! REVENGE FOR ROME! I BLEED SPQR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

consensus of people who do: Gaul might end up like Germania OTL, where Rome just decides its not worth invading, especially of Pompey has his way about everything, which he will with Caesar dead. Gaul will probably be a series of larger, more centralized and admittedly romanized confederacies/ republics.


Now I don't agree Pompey will have his way with everything-if anything, Pompey's political career is going to be even more under assault by the Catonians, but it does also open an opportunity for him to try and rebuild his grand coalition that he lost with the triumvirate.
 

Yuelang

Banned
Caesar, if he's lucky, will be bailed out by Pompey (with understanding that now he owes him a big favor) and will be shipped to work as governor somewhere else, preferably in the east...

If Caesar is unlucky, he will be tried and as predicted, face a capital punishment...

Of course, the real winner here is Pompey, as he could gather what remnants of Caesar's legion, merge them with his own, and launch a bigger, more prepared invasion of Gaul. If he also bails Caesar out, he could actually snatch some of the more promising Caesar's men...
 
There are a couple of big differences between Gallia and Germania: the Mediterranean agricultural package works in Gallia, and not in Germania and Gallia has a significant settled population with developed agriculture and commerce. Conquering Gallia makes sense, conquering Germania doesn't.
This does not even factor in the necessity for Rome to keep Gallia Narbonensis safe as the land route to Spain and its mines.

This makes me believe that even if Caesar is defeated at Alesia (which is very, very unlikely to say the least) Rome will be back in Gallia with a vengeance. The only things which might postpone (not waive away) the return match would be either a civil war (not going to happen if Caesar is disgraced) or big trouble in the east (not aware of it at this time in history).

Tell you the truth as I see it: if the impossible happens and the Gauls win at Alesia, I don't see Caesar walking away alive. It would be unthinkable for a guy with his pride.
 

Dirk

Banned
Anybody else would probably commit suicide. But knowing Caesar...anything is possible. Well, not everything, but his chances of somehow coming out on top against all odds are higher than anybody else's would be the same situation.
 
There are a couple of big differences between Gallia and Germania: the Mediterranean agricultural package works in Gallia, and not in Germania and Gallia has a significant settled population with developed agriculture and commerce. Conquering Gallia makes sense, conquering Germania doesn't.
This does not even factor in the necessity for Rome to keep Gallia Narbonensis safe as the land route to Spain and its mines.

This makes me believe that even if Caesar is defeated at Alesia (which is very, very unlikely to say the least) Rome will be back in Gallia with a vengeance. The only things which might postpone (not waive away) the return match would be either a civil war (not going to happen if Caesar is disgraced) or big trouble in the east (not aware of it at this time in history).

Tell you the truth as I see it: if the impossible happens and the Gauls win at Alesia, I don't see Caesar walking away alive. It would be unthinkable for a guy with his pride.

Seconded. Gaul has the full La Tiene package: oppida that can become cities controlling productive farmland that can support limes and latifundia. By the standards of the Northern Europe, Gaul produces the calories and the metal to make it worth conquering, and able to support the apparatus of Roman rule. Germany doesn't have the density, the preexisting proto-urban centers, or the climate to support a Roman province. It's like Poland, Ukraine, and the Sahara - the natural place for a border, because its territory that can't feed the apparatus necessary to control it.

Gaul has that, as well as the potential produce a bonanza of agricultural products and some metals. The Romans keep coming; even if Caesar is a washed up has been.
 
Remember Alesia was in 52. Crassus was dead in 53.

Now consider what is Alesia. This a battle were Caesar's army is encircled. He besieged Vercingetorix's army but was himself besieged by another enormous gaul army.

So if Caesar suffers a devastating defeat, his whole army is wiped out. Do you think there will be many survivors ? This will be much worse than Carrhae. There is no possible escape for the romans who are besieged.

In this hypothesis, Caesar's political reputation is ruined and he will never recover from this. If he escapes alive of the disaster, he most certainly commits suicide, because to him, his dignity had always been dearer than his life (and he proved it).

Alesia was an all-in battle. And Caesar made this bet because he knew he had a very very very high opportunity to win it all. The siege was a masterpiece of roman warfare. The gauls just did not have the necessary technical warfare to win the siege. They had made a strategic as well as a tactical fault and locked themselves into a trap.

Of course, the result was rather close because the gauls fought very valiantly. But Caesar could hardly lose because he was one of the greatest commanders Rome ever had and he had the best army Rome had ever had until then.

Things would have been different if he had been fighting against another roman army led by another good commander : see Dyracchium in 48.


Now what is different is if you have a second tactical defeat with Caesar leaving the siege of Alesia before the arrival of the second gaul army.
 
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