Caesar Defeated and Killed at Alesia, 52 BC

Anaxagoras

Banned
Antony could still be a player though. He wanted power, and although he was very vulgar, IIRC, the troops liked him. He was a good commander too, so you have to imagine he'd get some command. He could start a civil war a little later.

ITTL, might Antony throw his lot with Pompey, since he would still need a patron? Would Pompey accept him?
 
Another consequence would be the probable survival of Ptolemaic Kingdom, also the political survival of Cleopatra could be butterflied (in OTL it was the Caesar intervention in the internal affairs of Egypt that decided the fate of Cleopatra)

No Cleopatra, resulting in her siblings Ptolemy and Arsinoe marrying and ruling in her stead.
 

katchen

Banned
So instead of Julius Caesar, Pompeius Caesar or Crassus Caesar or Antoninus Caesar?
It almost sounds like the evolution to a Roman imperium was inevitable (one of the few instances of historical inevitability) given Gallic-Celtic inability to come together nationally in opposition to Rome and the way the Roman Republic was evolving. It would be great to see the Ptolemaic Empire survive though. Perhaps Rome under Pompey or Crassus would devote it's energies more to comquering Allemania and Vandalia to the Vistula instead of Egypt. The defeat of Julius Caesar might make Rome take it's northern frontiers a lot more seriously than it did OTL.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
So instead of Julius Caesar, Pompeius Caesar or Crassus Caesar or Antoninus Caesar?
It almost sounds like the evolution to a Roman imperium was inevitable (one of the few instances of historical inevitability) given Gallic-Celtic inability to come together nationally in opposition to Rome and the way the Roman Republic was evolving. It would be great to see the Ptolemaic Empire survive though. Perhaps Rome under Pompey or Crassus would devote it's energies more to comquering Allemania and Vandalia to the Vistula instead of Egypt. The defeat of Julius Caesar might make Rome take it's northern frontiers a lot more seriously than it did OTL.

Crassus was already dead by this point.
 
Actually, Vercangatorix uniting Gaul is not completely impossible. Firstly, peoples assumptions that "the Gauls weren't advanced/civilized enough"to unite is false. The Gauls were highly organised and urbanized by the time of Caesar, with cities having populations in excess of 50,000 people ( during one of Caesar's campaigns, he enslaved 53,000 people from one city.) They had advanced hygiene and advanced metalworking skills-in many ways more advanced than the Romans. If they retain independence, its probable this trend would continue and full scale cities would develop, with a civilization at least on the scale of the Romans.

Secondly, Caesars campaigns had, by this point, utterly depopulated or outright wiped out many of the rival competitors to Vercangatorix' native tribe the Arverni (who had remained relatively neutral.) The only major obstacle to unification could be the Arverni's long lasting enemy the Aeduii tribe-who had previously been allied to Caesar.

Finally, it doesn't have to be a Roman retaliation to unite the Gauls-the threat of invasion from Germanic tribes was already a huge threat (the suabi had conquered much of Gaul before Caesar defeated them.) Indeed, it's interesting to suggest that no Roman rule in Gaul may mean that Germanic tribes eventually populated and repopulate much of Gaul-with interesting log term consequences. And that's before we consider Britannia...
 
ITTL, might Antony throw his lot with Pompey, since he would still need a patron? Would Pompey accept him?

What Antony needs most is to stay in the military camps. He had few redeeming qualities outside of the military, but when he was fighting, his focus was solely on the campaign, and he was a great soldier.

With that in mind though, Antony was a staunch Caesar supporter and that may turn Pompey off. Not to mention, if Pompey chooses to remain out of military affairs, which he may very well do, Antony is even less attractive to Pompey because he is only really useful on the battlefield.

He might have to attach himself to someone else, maybe in the east, because he likely can't win a head command all on his own without a patron. It would be interesting to see where his career goes, if anywhere at all after Caesar's death.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
With that in mind though, Antony was a staunch Caesar supporter and that may turn Pompey off. Not to mention, if Pompey chooses to remain out of military affairs, which he may very well do, Antony is even less attractive to Pompey because he is only really useful on the battlefield.

But with Caesar and Crassus both gone, would not Cato, Cicero and company turn their attention towards Pompey as the threat to the Republic? In that case, wouldn't Pompey be on the lookout for allies?
 
But with Caesar and Crassus both gone, would not Cato, Cicero and company turn their attention towards Pompey as the threat to the Republic? In that case, wouldn't Pompey be on the lookout for allies?

Yes, but Antony isn't a valuable ally. He owed his entire career to Caesar, and was still entirely dependent on Caesar at this time. He was just another one of Caesar's legates to everyone else at the time, albeit a very talented one on the battlefield. Pompey needs more of a political ally-he's not Caesar, and so he's certainly not going to cause his feud with the optimates to turn into a full blown civil war. Antony's only use to Pompey would be on the battlefield.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Yes, but Antony isn't a valuable ally. He owed his entire career to Caesar, and was still entirely dependent on Caesar at this time. He was just another one of Caesar's legates to everyone else at the time, albeit a very talented one on the battlefield. Pompey needs more of a political ally-he's not Caesar, and so he's certainly not going to cause his feud with the optimates to turn into a full blown civil war. Antony's only use to Pompey would be on the battlefield.

Quite true. But if it is Pompey who is sent north to exact vengeance from the Gauls, he might take Antony along with him. As you say, he's a good commander and he has experience fighting against the Gauls. But I don't think Antony will appeal to Pompey they way he did to Caesar, which will leave Antony's career in limbo.
 
Well I just found this out: The whole reason Antony enlisted with Caesar in Gaul was because he ran into trouble with Pompey for his actions with Gabinius in restoring Ptolemy XII Auletes in 55 BC. When they restored Ptolemy to the throne (with Gabinius planning the invasion of Egypt and Antony carrying it out), they received rich rewards from Auletes. However, the campaign was done without the Senate's consent, and Pompey flat out refused to step in on their behalf and legalize it, thus both commanders were blacklisted. Gabinius was prosecuted, and Mark Antony fled to Gaul, where he enlisted under his relative, Gaius Julius Caesar, and his friend, Publius Crassus (Crassus' son and commander under Caesar in Gaul). It was a smart move-Pompey could not touch Antony in Gaul unless he wanted to but heads with Caesar and Crassus.



So yeah, Pompey's not enlisting Antony's support anytime soon...
 
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