Byzantium without the Arab Conquests

It was well known that following the end of the last Byzantine-Persian war, they were both incredibly weak. Byzantium had very little control over its provinces outside of Anatolia, the best troops of North Africa had gone with Heraclius and never came back, and the province of Egypt was being riled up by a charmless Cyrus whose every move seemed to worsen his position. Therefore, without the invasions of the Arabs, how would Byzantium have done?

It is quite likely that if Cyrus was not replaced, and considering Heraclius' push for Monothelitism he likely would not have been, the Egyptians would have revolted. The question here, then is would they have won? Egypt had no real concrete army and most of Heraclius' military men were either Armenian or North African. Would they have been able to ride on sheer zealotry and the charisma of such men as Benjamin?

Syria also comes into play. While Palestine was fairly Chalcedonian in its belief and Syrian coastal towns were similar, the countryside and inland towns such as Damascus are firmly Jacobite. The Persian invasions caused much of the mobility and richer merchants, the main Chalcedonian base of Syria, to flee to Anatolia and Constantinople. With them gone, was the Jacobite support base large enough and the Byzantine army weak enough for a strong rebellion to have happened? Would they have joined Egypt or pushed for independence on their own terms?

There is also the matter of North Africa to consider. It was practically a marginal border province by the time that the Byzantines had taken it due to the collapse of the trade of Red Slip and most Mediterranean trade in general, and though Carthage had some construction and vitality left, the countryside was practically empty except for a few peasants, likely descendants of the Carthaginians and Roman settlers, surviving. The Greek elite that was left mostly followed Heraclius to Constantinople and Berber encroachment and eventual fall seemed imminent; Leptis Magna fell them to during the events of the Persian war.

Finally, there is the matter of Italy and the Balkans to consider. The Former has to deal with angry Lombards who are Arian and hostile, and certainly not fascinated in the primacy of the pope, and the latter is ringed by Slavs who have exploited the Empire's weakness and Avars who nearly felled the walls of Constantinople. Considering the Empire's instability and frailty after the Persian wars, would they have been able to survive and brave the invasions that would likely follow or would they have cracked and the Slavs and Avars would pour in? And what of the Bulgars, who were coming into the region at this time?

Thus, the question becomes: Will the empire have the resources and strength under the latter years of Heraclius to rein in the provinces, counter rebellions, and keep the whole thing stable? If not, where and how would it fall? And once Heraclius dies, will the whole thing go to hell?

Yes, I am probing for a planned timeline which I am mapping out.
 
I'm sorry to avoid the main topic you're bringing up, but how are you avoiding the Arab invasions?

Is it as simple as killing off Muhammad, or are you stifling Islam in the bud by, say, exacerbating the early Muslim intercine conflicts?

If Arabia remains a backwater, it could become an important factor in Byzantine plans by providing control of the Red Sea, which controls trade to India (specifically, the Rashtrakutas), one of the richest markets available. The Sassanids had a much easier time with that trade simply due to their location, and if I'm not mistaken, the Byzantines were always interested in getting a piece of it.

I'm not sure how good Byzantine power projection was at the time, but I'm assuming it would be significantly better without Arab invasions. Interesting topic, ImmortalImpi.

Cheers,
Ganesha
 
The PoD is during the Ridda Wars; Umar, in a panic when he hears about the problems with the Ansar of Medina and the false prophets, does not support Abu Bakr for the undisputed Khalifa of the Muslim world. Therefore, the negotiations with Medina break down, especially once news of the revolt of Maslama and Sajah spreads, and the entire foundation laid down by Mohammad breaks down. Eventually Mecca buckles under the pressure; some of the Companions flee to Aksum, others to India. The confusion in Arabia does force a push outwards, but rather than an organized invasion, it is a large migration.

Interested in settling the Arabs along the depopulated frontier with both Byzantium and the desert, he gives these migrants permission to settle on the marchland. Similar migrations push into Syria and the like, which would likely be embroiled in chaos. Arabs would sort of replace Turks as important military soldiers and the occasional administrator of these areas, but for the most part as a frontier people or as merchants eventually blending into the cities. I am unsure of what to with Islam itself, though. Might make it a minority region around the world.
 
The PoD is during the Ridda Wars; Umar, in a panic when he hears about the problems with the Ansar of Medina and the false prophets, does not support Abu Bakr for the undisputed Khalifa of the Muslim world. Therefore, the negotiations with Medina break down, especially once news of the revolt of Maslama and Sajah spreads, and the entire foundation laid down by Mohammad breaks down. Eventually Mecca buckles under the pressure; some of the Companions flee to Aksum, others to India. The confusion in Arabia does force a push outwards, but rather than an organized invasion, it is a large migration.

Interested in settling the Arabs along the depopulated frontier with both Byzantium and the desert, he gives these migrants permission to settle on the marchland. Similar migrations push into Syria and the like, which would likely be embroiled in chaos. Arabs would sort of replace Turks as important military soldiers and the occasional administrator of these areas, but for the most part as a frontier people or as merchants eventually blending into the cities. I am unsure of what to with Islam itself, though. Might make it a minority region around the world.

What might be interesting is to have Islam become the merchant religion of the Indian Ocean basin. With Arabs spreading outwards from Arabia (you mentioned some fleeing to India) and a growth of trade that occurred OTL during this era, a thalassocratic society grounded in a shared religion might be very interesting indeed. There'd be small communities of Muslims from Aceh to Yangon to the Malalayam Coast to Aden to Zanzibar. Just a suggestion.

It sounds like a fascinating timeline you've got in the works. I hope you focus on the Sassanids and the rest of Eurasia as much as you do on Europe. A world with a much smaller Islam affects the lands to the east of Arabia as much as it does the West.

Cheers,
Ganesha
 
It sounds like a fascinating timeline you've got in the works. I hope you focus on the Sassanids and the rest of Eurasia as much as you do on Europe. A world with a much smaller Islam affects the lands to the east of Arabia as much as it does the West.

Cheers,
Ganesha

Why of course! India's historical record during this era is sketchy at best and non-existent at worst, but I'll see what I'll do, and of course the Sassanids are at the top of my list.

If possible though, could we get back to the matter at hand? It would be very helpful if some information could be supplied on the topic in the OP.
 
I wouldn't put too much stock in Egypt and Syria's ability to effectively secede from the empire. Herakleios was a competent Emperor, and these are provinces without strong military traditions. In all likeliness the nobility will start to return and bring order in the absence of an Arab conquest event, although there would probably be some minor uprisings in Egypt.

Italy and the Balkans are a bit tougher. I imagine that the Balkans could be saved by military force or bribing in the absence of a massive crisis, but the Lombards in Italy are facing a fairly devastated province that the Empire doesn't at this point consider vital to its survival. I doubt that they would want to be paid off, but maybe if the Avars are paid off the military could be sent to deal with the Lombards. I imagine that the empire could hold more or less together for Herakleios' entire reign, but after that it really depends on who succeeds hum and what the Persians do. With a strong Emperor I think that an empire that isn't fighting Persia can keep it together, but while fighting Persia or with a weak emperor Italy, Africa, and Egypt are in serious danger of being lost, while if both of these events should happen together the empire might just die outright. Quite a razor's edge they were walking in this era, I look forward to seeing what you do with such an a interesting time.
 
What might be interesting is to have Islam become the merchant religion of the Indian Ocean basin. With Arabs spreading outwards from Arabia (you mentioned some fleeing to India) and a growth of trade that occurred OTL during this era, a thalassocratic society grounded in a shared religion might be very interesting indeed. There'd be small communities of Muslims from Aceh to Yangon to the Malalayam Coast to Aden to Zanzibar. Just a suggestion.

It sounds like a fascinating timeline you've got in the works. I hope you focus on the Sassanids and the rest of Eurasia as much as you do on Europe. A world with a much smaller Islam affects the lands to the east of Arabia as much as it does the West.

Cheers,
Ganesha

Well, if Islam could emphasize Arab Lineage much more as the Choosen People.

Given my Berber interest I wonder how North Africa will play out. Though it is a good source of manpower and supply it is very vulnerable to attack from across the sea or from the interior.
 
Given my Berber interest I wonder how North Africa will play out. Though it is a good source of manpower and supply it is very vulnerable to attack from across the sea or from the interior.

The fascinating thing about the Berbers is that at the time of the Arab conquests they were spreading to the coastal areas from the inland, and in a general movement from east to west. It is quite possible they could have eventually enveloped the remaining territories in Africa Proconsularis and Bycazena and interbred with the local population (at least, more than they had before).

Not too sure about the western Maghreb. There were some kingdoms there, but I can't think of much information about them.
 
The fascinating thing about the Berbers is that at the time of the Arab conquests they were spreading to the coastal areas from the inland, and in a general movement from east to west. It is quite possible they could have eventually enveloped the remaining territories in Africa Proconsularis and Bycazena and interbred with the local population (at least, more than they had before).

Not too sure about the western Maghreb. There were some kingdoms there, but I can't think of much information about them.

Given the region's already heretical leanings the introduction of Berber influences into the region may have been a potential powderkeg.
 
well, before answering to your question, I have one:

What does religious turmoil has to do with with a strugle for independance?

I mean, that I do not know if the Egyptian and Syrian "heretics" ever wanted to break from the empire, or just demanded for their beliefs to prevail, or at least be respected within the empire. Of course, Constantinople's control over these provinces was diminishing, but is this enough for saying that they were aiming to their independance? I do not share this idea...

But, in the event of no Arab/muslim invasions, I can see a gradualy deepened crisis between Egypt (Syria not so much, IMHO) and Constantinople, but I estimate (yes, it's a rather arbitrary estimation) one or two centuries till the final "divorse".

That means that Byzantium has the time to consolidate with its "heretic" problem until the Iconoclastic era. If it doesn't, there's the risk to lose a lot more than Egypt, except if a dynasty like the Macedonian emerges earlier, and Byzantium becomes more militarily-orientated, and the ermperor imposes by the might of his arms a strict political solution on the religious turmoil....
 
It really all depends if the Byzantines can bring the Berbers into the fold better, if the social turmoil from groups of peoples moving through a region does not lead to economic and political tension. Especially if the Byzantines become weaker rather then stronger.
 
It would require reforms on the same level as the OTL post Muslim Conquest type but its possible, the empire is going to need to become far more tolerant towards the non-chalcedonians in her empire and come up with a new way of raising armies and funds. In order to continue rule in Egypt you may also see a different helenization of the empire given how much of the population is grecophone and the latin areas where they got most of their soldiers are now lost due to the invasions of the Balkans. Course the best thing to do is probably ask some questions to Basileus Giorgios about this since he is by far the most knowledgeable about this stuff on the site.
 
Monothelitism was perceived in Egypt and Syria as a victory- it was widely pronounced in these provinces that "we have brought the Chalcedonians to us". In this context, I can't see any revolt happening, save for the usual ones of ambitious generals. Egypt had twelve years to revolt between 629 and 641, and we see no sign of this whatsoever- nor is there any indication of revolt in Syria in the 630s. Surviving Coptic/Syriac sources generally are from long after the period, and have an interest in talking about the long years of oppression suffered by their communities.

The only group that did have legitimate "persecution issues" in our period are the Jews, and it is notable that there were Jewish revolts in this period, against Romans, Iranians, and Arabs alike.

All in all, I think revolt is hugely unlikely, given it did not happen in a fairly long (in human terms) space of time after reconquest. Also, if the Egyptians and Syrians really felt so separatist, they should have revolted against the Arabs who were far more oppressive to Christians in general than the Romans ever were.

As for North Africa, I think it'll be held. I think I've read somewhere that the idea of the Iranians getting as far as Leptis Magna is basically bollocks, and is due to whoever reports it (possibly Theophanes?) getting his towns confused. The Exarchate of Africa was certainly strong and cohesive enough IOTL to hold off several attempted Arab invasions. What may be a problem here is issues of religion. The idea that Monothelitism was unpopular in the East is mostly incorrect- but it was certainly unpopular in the West, and I guess there'll be recalcitrant bishops in both Italy and Africa. Even in the weakness of OTL's mid seventh century, though, there weren't serious Western revolts against the monothelite regime of Constans II, which should be remembered.

The Balkans will probably continue to remain fairly deprived of resources, though I wouldn't rule out campaigning in the region when other frontiers are pacified. Ultimately, I think it's more likely than not that the Danube line will be recovered, but make no mistake- if serious problems arise elsewhere, the Balkans will be the first to be dropped. The Empire's first priority here will always be to safeguard Syria, and, by extension, Egypt. After that, we have a sliding scale of priorities- Anatolia is more important than Thrace is more important than the Mediterranean isles (Sicily and Cyprus) is more important than Africa is more important than Italy is more important than the northern and western Balkans.

All in all, I think you're somewhat overstating the challenges a seventh century Empire will face.
 

OS fan

Banned
Very interesting indeed, especially the character of patriach Sergius. Me thinks, without this man, the Byzantine Empire might have fallen apart during the 7th century.
 
Maybe Heraculis, but would those who come after him be as able? The Berber Client Kingdoms would resist direct intergration especially due to their Western Roman influences.
 
As for North Africa, I think it'll be held. I think I've read somewhere that the idea of the Iranians getting as far as Leptis Magna is basically bollocks, and is due to whoever reports it (possibly Theophanes?) getting his towns confused. The Exarchate of Africa was certainly strong and cohesive enough IOTL to hold off several attempted Arab invasions. What may be a problem here is issues of religion. The idea that Monothelitism was unpopular in the East is mostly incorrect- but it was certainly unpopular in the West, and I guess there'll be recalcitrant bishops in both Italy and Africa. Even in the weakness of OTL's mid seventh century, though, there weren't serious Western revolts against the monothelite regime of Constans II, which should be remembered.

I said the Berbers did, not the Persians? And in any case, this seems to be massively overstating Byzantine capabilities in Africa. When Heraclius took the best troops, he left behind a motley crowd that could barely defend Carthage. Your assumption that North Africa can be held because it was protected against the Muslims was false. It most certainly was not the Byzantines who stopped them, but the Berbers and personal disputes.

The first invasion took Barqa without much of a fight and crushed the Exarch's army soundly, but Amr was forced out of office due to his growing prestige, which Umar saw as a danger against the Caliphate's stability. The later Invasions didn't really need to try to do much against the Byzantines; they practically handed the cities to them. Only Carthage managed to hold out for any considerable amount of time and even then it was a frail existence which it had.

Without the Arabs, I can almost certainly see that it would be held within the reign of Heraclius. He was a competent man and would certainly like to keep North Africa, at least the coasts. Following his death, however, the situation would likely be hopeless. Resources would need to allocated to different areas and I doubt there would be so many people as good at allocating them as Heraclius would be. The fact of the matter was that Africa was immensely marginal for the Byzantines. They barely kept a garrison at most settlements, the Berbers were everywhere, and only Carthage had an appreciable Urban population. It it quite likely it will fall, if only after the reign of Heraclius. The Romans don't really have the interest to keep such a troublesome province, and I'm sure Heraclius' successor would likely feel that cutting some corners would be the best idea, especially considering that his death could invoke some attacks by Avars or Lombards.

The rest I do agree with, though. Insightful as always. I have to question, though; would the placated state of Egypt and Syria last forever? I do remember a map made by you which suggested that by the 700s in a world with the Arab conquests that it would eventually split off. Perhaps you'd like to clarify or rescind your thoughts on the more long-term, since it seems mostly obvious that Heraclius won't lose much during his reign?
 
I can certainly believe that Africa was in decline after the beginning of the seventh century- but I'd argue that was because of the trends of OTL's seventh century, rather than any serious weakness in the African Exarchate as a whole, as can be seen from the comparative prosperity of the area in the second half of the sixth century. Without Iranians and then Arabs overrunning the East and the withdrawal of all the field armies into Anatolia, I think there'll be plenty more resources to spend on holding onto Africa. Its proximity to wealthy and important Sicily will certainly help Africa here.

I know next to nothing about the Berbers, though I can certainly imagine that they were beginning to make Germanic-style advances into the richer Roman provinces in the period. I do think, though, that without conflict elsewhere, the Romans will be able to reverse this trend without too much difficulty- that is unless multiple Exarchs try to "play a Heraclius" and revolt. Revolt, more than anything else, is how provinces seem to get lost to Rome- see Constantine of Britain at the beginning of the fifth century, for example.

Regarding Egypt, the map was made by me at a time before I'd started seriously reading about late Roman Egypt for my dissertation. Now, the more I read about the province, the more convinced I am that secession is hugely unlikely, especially with the Monothelite compromise which was enough for all but the most hardline Mononphysites. The elite of Egypt spoke and thought in Greek, and thought of itself quite strongly as "Roman", certainly more so than anything else. Where religious identity was considered, all but extremists would merely call themselves "Christian", not anything more specific than that.

Finally, the Egyptian aristocracy was far more tied into the commercial and political life of the Empire than was the "average man on the Nile" (making frequent trips to Constantinople, having relatives in the Imperial court etc), which would certainly mean from their perspective an Egyptian revolt would be fairly disastrous. And, since the Roman Empire was run by and for its landowners, I have to say I think Egyptian (or Syrian) secession over religious matters understood by few at any level in their society is deeply unlikely. The best you might get are a couple of abortive rebellions that last a couple of years at best.

Africa and Italy may have more chance of seceding because the thought world is so different- Latin, rather than Greek. The Emperor in the West is a much more distant figure than he is in Egypt or Syria, and there's an alternative political focus in the form of the Papacy, which is already acquiring the beginnings of autonomy by the 630s. Now, how long the Popes will be able to keep this up without the Arabs to distract the Emperor from focusing on the West is debatable- it's worth noting that IOTL's seventh century the Emperor was generally able to force the Papacy into submission even at this nadir of Imperial power.

Basically- I don't dispute for a moment that the Roman Empire was very weak in OTL's 630s, and will continue to be exhausted for some time ITTL. But equally, I think it's hugely optimistic to assume that there won't be a strong revival from about 645 onwards, especially given Iran was already dissolving into chaos before the Arab invasions IOTL and probably will continue down this trajectory here. The House of Sasan or a successor will probably be beginning to get back on its feet by 660 or 670: but it gives the Byzantines about a generation to stretch their (still considerable) muscles.
 
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