Byzantium Save: Royal Intermarriage w/ Aragon

What if, around 1300 AD, Byzantium had a royal intermarriage with Aragon? Could this have saved them, both militarily and diplomatically? What are your guys's opinions?
 
Unless you're going to have the Byzies make a mass exodus to Aragon in the 1450s, Aragon isn't gonna matter, it's WAAAY too far away.
Remember, it's the middle ages, it takes a lot of time for messages/troops to travel across the WHOLE Europe. And if you send ships, they can/will get sunk by the pirates rampant in the Mediterranean.
 
I think the reason that the Aragonese married who they married by the 1300s is because by this time Byzantium was really weak. Trade on the Bosporus was dominated by the Genoese and Venetians. A stronger Byzantium that has more to offer as an ally would make Aragon more likely to look in that direction.

With an earlier POD Eudokia Komnene, niece of the Emperor, was a bride intended for Aragon before the HRE stopped it.
 

Deleted member 67076

What if, around 1300 AD, Byzantium had a royal intermarriage with Aragon? Could this have saved them, both militarily and diplomatically? What are your guys's opinions?

It would save in the sense that the Catalans had an interest in moving into the lucrative Eastern Med trade and would eagerly take any oppertunity to move in. Byzantium provides an oppertunity for friendly ports and bases in the Aegean.

Additonally the Catalans would naturally take the pressure of Venice and Genoa away from Byzantium, which helps Byzantium in building its naval and economic presence.

Dunno if itll make the Catalan Company any more loyal, but overall a marriage alliance is mutually beneficial.

Salvation depends more on Byzantine domestic affairs than purely allies however, but youve tipped the scales in their favor.
 
There were actually attempts at this prior to the 1300s. Manuel Komnenos sent his grand-niece, Eudokia Komnenos, to marry either Alfonso II of Aragon or his younger brother Raymond Berengar V, count of Provence as a means of countering Frederick Barbarossa's influence. And before her father's death, Eudokia Laskaris was promised to Peter III of Aragon, then Michael Palaiologos took over and married her off to an obscure Italian count.
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
I find the idea of a d'Aragon managing to rule the Romans - if such an event happened, I wonder where they would rule from, Napoli/Sicily rather than Constantinople or Barcelona? I would expect as much until they'd managed to secure the regions near Constantinople - if they could.
 
There were actually attempts at this prior to the 1300s. Manuel Komnenos sent his grand-niece, Eudokia Komnenos, to marry either Alfonso II of Aragon or his younger brother Raymond Berengar V, count of Provence as a means of countering Frederick Barbarossa's influence. And before her father's death, Eudokia Laskaris was promised to Peter III of Aragon, then Michael Palaiologos took over and married her off to an obscure Italian count.

Countering Frederick Barbarossa? There's a reason why he and not (HRE) Frederick II (too Siculo-centric) is remembered as a great monarch in the German Lands of the former HRE. It was the time when the HRE was as unified as France and the HRE was the premier Catholic power, not long after that the followed the same long of decline as the Eastern Romans of Constantinople.
Marriages between Imperial dynasties from both Empires were not unheard of by this point and a few great nobles of the HRE even managed to marry relatives from the 'Byzantine' Emperor.

The HRE wasn't a threat to the Byzantine Empire outside Italy (which didn't matter at that point), apart from the true Christian Roman Empire debate (OTOH more than one Emperor in One Roman Emperor is not unprecendented), which with bigger fishes too fry can be solved diplomatically.
 

Deleted member 67076

I find the idea of a d'Aragon managing to rule the Romans - if such an event happened, I wonder where they would rule from, Napoli/Sicily rather than Constantinople or Barcelona? I would expect as much until they'd managed to secure the regions near Constantinople - if they could.

Theyd probably split the kingdoms. No one in Romania would accept being ruled away from the imperial capital.
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
Theyd probably split the kingdoms. No one in Romania would accept being ruled away from the imperial capital.

Well, apart from the difficulties in convincing the Romans that the Emperor can move the capital where he wishes (yeah, I know, nightmarish, difficult, lets not go there), what if there was the Emperor (King of Aragon) and a co-emperor/kaiser who was the heir, and ruled in Constantinople?

Although, I'm not so sure this is a problem, it isn't unprecedented for Emperors not to rule from the imperial capital. If the Romans are kept safe, and strong - then they should be fine.

The only issue with Aragon is that any union needs to happen before 1356 - and they make sure to control Gallipoli. Aragon is a naval power, if the Ottomans can cross the water, then the Aragonese would need stronger allies in the region, or much more manpower/money to deal with the problem - a strong Aragonese fleet in Constantinople, and strong forts controlling the Bosphoros and Dardanelles, at least on the European side, would be the most sound solution for the Aragonese Emperors (to give them a name). Until such point that they have dominance of the Balkans, enough so that they can use just the Roman Army to fight the Ottomans.

I actually like the Aragonese heir being Kaiser, it'd create the interesting dynamic where the King is in Barcelona for the first generation, but his heir may prefer to rule from Constantinople. With control of access to the Black Sea and its trade, Aragon could set itself up as the premier Mediterranean naval power, and beat back the pirates, and take over places like Cyprus, and maybe even bring the Knights of Rhodes under their protection.
 
Well, apart from the difficulties in convincing the Romans that the Emperor can move the capital where he wishes (yeah, I know, nightmarish, difficult, lets not go there), what if there was the Emperor (King of Aragon) and a co-emperor/kaiser who was the heir, and ruled in Constantinople?

Although, I'm not so sure this is a problem, it isn't unprecedented for Emperors not to rule from the imperial capital. If the Romans are kept safe, and strong - then they should be fine.

The only issue with Aragon is that any union needs to happen before 1356 - and they make sure to control Gallipoli. Aragon is a naval power, if the Ottomans can cross the water, then the Aragonese would need stronger allies in the region, or much more manpower/money to deal with the problem - a strong Aragonese fleet in Constantinople, and strong forts controlling the Bosphoros and Dardanelles, at least on the European side, would be the most sound solution for the Aragonese Emperors (to give them a name). Until such point that they have dominance of the Balkans, enough so that they can use just the Roman Army to fight the Ottomans.

I actually like the Aragonese heir being Kaiser, it'd create the interesting dynamic where the King is in Barcelona for the first generation, but his heir may prefer to rule from Constantinople. With control of access to the Black Sea and its trade, Aragon could set itself up as the premier Mediterranean naval power, and beat back the pirates, and take over places like Cyprus, and maybe even bring the Knights of Rhodes under their protection.
The ERE by this time is an entirely different place compared to the days of Augustus or even Heraclius.Governing away from Constantinople really isn't an option given Constantinople is very much what makes up the ERE at this point spiritually and administratively(what I mean is that it is THE CITY,it was a greater spiritual capital than Rome ever was),especially with the emperor being a foreign 'barbarian' and a Catholic.
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
The ERE by this time is an entirely different place compared to the days of Augustus or even Heraclius.Governing away from Constantinople really isn't an option given Constantinople is very much what makes up the ERE at this point spiritually and administratively(what I mean is that it is THE CITY,it was a greater spiritual capital than Rome ever was),especially with the emperor being a foreign 'barbarian' and a Catholic.

Actually that does pose an interesting question.

If the King of Aragon is Emperor of the Romans (and as such has some power over the Patriarch of Constantinople) - are we likely to see a union of the churches? Or could Aragon go Orthodox so that it has greater power over its own church?
 
Actually that does pose an interesting question.

If the King of Aragon is Emperor of the Romans (and as such has some power over the Patriarch of Constantinople) - are we likely to see a union of the churches? Or could Aragon go Orthodox so that it has greater power over its own church?

If he tries to subordinate the Orthodox church to Rome, he gets deposed quickly in Constantinople. If he tries to subordinate Rome to the Orthodox, he gets deposed quickly in Aragon.

If he tries to unite the churches, splitting the difference, he may get deposed both places.

Nope. Not going to happen. Especially if this is AFTER the Latin Empire.
 

trajen777

Banned
I know it goes against the grain on when Byz is save able or not -- many say 1204 - or 1265 or 1071 --- however i think you need a timeline where there are rational leaders for 4-6 emperors -- if you have this i think it is possible. You really need to stop the cival wars that invited the Turks into Europe -- then you have Tammerlame who would have destroyed the Turkish Ottoman empire. From their you could have had a European power or a gradual reconquest or Anatolia.
 
A marriage alliance with Aragon would improve the Empire's situation relative to OTL -- let's face it, it could hardly make it worse -- but Aragon is a bit distant to be of much use. Somewhere closer to hand like Bulgaria or Serbia might be better (both fellow-Orthodox and culturally influenced by Byzantium, so a union could work). Alternatively Sicily/Naples might be a good bet -- near enough to provide meaningful aid, and it would remove their unfortunate tendency to start dicking around in Epirus and forcing the Byzantines to split their forces.
 
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