Byzantium and the Reich

Belisarius was the victor of another battle, the name of which escapes right now. He's also the hero of an alternate history series by David Drake and Harry Turtledove. Skorzeny was one of the best commando leaders of all time.

Do you think he didn't know that? :rolleyes:
 
lol...a published novel by Bard32. The mere thought gives me a severe case of the giggles. :) Bard seems to still be unable to grasp the idea of the butterfly effect, even though it's been explained to him several times here, including once by myself.

In any case Bard, you really should post this in ASB. A Byzantine Empire surviving into an alternate 1930s/40s is certainly possible, but a 1930s/40s that is virtually identical to our own is an ASB occurrence without a doubt.
 

bard32

Banned
lol...a published novel by Bard32. The mere thought gives me a severe case of the giggles. :) Bard seems to still be unable to grasp the idea of the butterfly effect, even though it's been explained to him several times here, including once by myself.

In any case Bard, you really should post this in ASB. A Byzantine Empire surviving into an alternate 1930s/40s is certainly possible, but a 1930s/40s that is virtually identical to our own is an ASB occurrence without a doubt.

Maybe it will be moved.
 
Something you should never do is introduce historical people, who were born long after your POD, like Patton or Hitler.

OK, maybe not have Patton an American general or Hitler as a German dictator, but to me, what makes Alternate History "Alternate" is by having OTL people make ATL decisions.

For example ITTL, say you do have the Holy Roman Empire as the Reich. It's 1939, and the map of Europe looks different. Perhaps the Reich is a centralized Republic by this time, the Duchies and Kingdoms finally united and formed a government that abolished the Emperor in a Revolution in 1852. Adolf Hitler could be a little boy from Austria who found his calling in the Scriptures. He became a Monk who studied and studied the book of Joshua, interpreting it's history as a demand for Genocide and Crusade. Brother Hitler is elected to the Reich's Parliament and eventually to as the Premier of the Reich.

George S. Patton could follow a similar alternate path. Perhaps the English were harsher on the Scots and a brutal war ensures that the two never unite. There's some Scottish immigration to the New World, but not enough so that eventually, New Scotland is absorbed by the English colonies. Patton's family however, remains in Scotland, and so does Patton. He becomes a strong Scottish patriot with a flare for war glory. He joins the military, but the Scottish military is little more than a band of infantry soldiers. Patton's military prowess and a short war with the Norse gains him national fame and he's soon elected to be the Prime Minister. Patton's chief priority is to boost the Scottish military to fighting power and to gain allies in the coming war. Since Scotland and Germany both define England as enemies... Patton-Hitler Alliance.

Of course, name changes are a must. McPatton, von Hitler, etc. In my "President Douglas" TL with a POD in 1858, Blacks and Latinos basically merge into what becomes known as the "Brown" race. In the 1960s, the leader of the (violent) Civil Rights movement is Mateo Equis. Not too hard to figure out, but he's a very different person. For one thing, he's not Muslim!
 
OK, maybe not have Patton an American general or Hitler as a German dictator, but to me, what makes Alternate History "Alternate" is by having OTL people make ATL decisions.

For example ITTL, say you do have the Holy Roman Empire as the Reich. It's 1939, and the map of Europe looks different. Perhaps the Reich is a centralized Republic by this time, the Duchies and Kingdoms finally united and formed a government that abolished the Emperor in a Revolution in 1852. Adolf Hitler could be a little boy from Austria who found his calling in the Scriptures. He became a Monk who studied and studied the book of Joshua, interpreting it's history as a demand for Genocide and Crusade. Brother Hitler is elected to the Reich's Parliament and eventually to as the Premier of the Reich.

George S. Patton could follow a similar alternate path. Perhaps the English were harsher on the Scots and a brutal war ensures that the two never unite. There's some Scottish immigration to the New World, but not enough so that eventually, New Scotland is absorbed by the English colonies. Patton's family however, remains in Scotland, and so does Patton. He becomes a strong Scottish patriot with a flare for war glory. He joins the military, but the Scottish military is little more than a band of infantry soldiers. Patton's military prowess and a short war with the Norse gains him national fame and he's soon elected to be the Prime Minister. Patton's chief priority is to boost the Scottish military to fighting power and to gain allies in the coming war. Since Scotland and Germany both define England as enemies... Patton-Hitler Alliance.

Of course, name changes are a must. McPatton, von Hitler, etc. In my "President Douglas" TL with a POD in 1858, Blacks and Latinos basically merge into what becomes known as the "Brown" race. In the 1960s, the leader of the (violent) Civil Rights movement is Mateo Equis. Not too hard to figure out, but he's a very different person. For one thing, he's not Muslim!


You an bard both need to brush up on alternate history and the butterfly effect. If the Byzantines survived, THERE WOULD BE NO HITLER.
Got that? A birth is an uncertain thing. Any changes whatsoever from conception to birth itself would lead to a different person. Not to mention centuries of genetics required to make Hitler exactly what he was, which by probability basically could not happen ITTL. Taking the butterfly effect to its fullest, anyone born after the POD will not be born. You can make the exception in more isolated areas, for decades or centuries, but not in Europe with a European POD for half a millennium. Okay? No Hitler, no Patton, no recognizable figures at all, whatsoever, no questions.

/rant
 
Dude, calm down.

You an bard both need to brush up on alternate history and the butterfly effect.

1. If Alternate History was a science, they wouldn't call it "Alternate History." They'd just call it "History." As such, there is no such thing as a "wrong Alternate History" becuase it's alternate, it's not our timeline so how the hell do you not know that all the factors that made Hitler who he was don't matter a shit because we're all predetermined souls with our own predetermined characteristics that just enter any given body? Exactly. You don't. That's because all alternate history are THEORIES.

ZOMG WHAT A CONCEPT!!!!111!~!!

2. Fuck the butterflies.

A birth is an uncertain thing. Any changes whatsoever from conception to birth itself would lead to a different person. Not to mention centuries of genetics required to make Hitler exactly what he was, which by probability basically could not happen ITTL. Taking the butterfly effect to its fullest, anyone born after the POD will not be born. You can make the exception in more isolated areas, for decades or centuries, but not in Europe with a European POD for half a millennium.

Again, it doesn't seem very "Alternate History" without a bit of "History" thrown in well after the POD. Sure, it's not perfectly realistic because of the laws of genetics. Don't talk to me like I'm some moron who just threw together a TimeLine based on the loosest knowledge of a period of history and then just went down the line.

Durrr wi the neanderothhales survivede too t3h modderm dai? Woud hitlerr make a jeniside on t3h neandertals???///?

I'm well aware of the genetic improbabilities that make pretty much everyone IOTL inable to appear in virtually any ATL. However, I like playing WI and then comparing to certain historical figures as well as playing it into my own life. That wouldn't work too well if I just dismissed it with, "Oh, well considering my mother is Puerto Rican and my father is Pole-Italian, there'd be no way they would've met, nor that my Dad would even exist... so I wouldn't exist any way so why bother thinking about how my life would be different ITTL because I wouldn't exist anyway."

Okay? No Hitler, no Patton, no recognizable figures at all, whatsoever, no questions.

Oh, there's a lot of questions. Hence why we're all on this forum. Just because there's a POD involved doesn't mean you have to go ape-shit when somebody says "Hitler." Note how I didn't delve into Eisenhower, Rommel, Bradley, Roosevelt, etc. If "Byzantium and the Reich" had every single historical figure in exactly the same positions as OTL and they're all exactly the same people, then you have every right to call it ASB.

But just because some people are present in an ATL in different positions doesn't mean it's ASB. Say ITTL, Eisenhower's parents never meet and he's never born. Well there you go, no Eisenhower. Never has to be said. He could just be out of the picture. Just because a Hitler and a Patton exist doesn't make it automatically ASB.

Just a question, if I said Dieter Hister becomes the monk and is elected to the Reich's parliament, would you have had a problem with that? He still wears a stylish tooth brush moustache and is extremely charismtatic with an extreme hatred for the Jews... would you have objected?
 
Has anybody used the domino analogy yet? Here's something I'd use:

Say you have dominoes lined up so that there's one at the beginning row, two in the 2nd row, 4 in the 3rd row, and so on. Powers of 2, basically. The closer you are to the beginning, the less get knocked down simply because there's less to change. The more dominoes, the more change.

Births are essentially one random egg cell at any given month, and one random sperm cell, out of millions, meeting. The more changes that happen, the less chance that the exact sperm cell and the exact egg cell will meet. Goes with their parents as well.
 
Narses is the sidekick, obviously.

Ah, that's a good idea. Now we just need to find a feminine but tough and capable love interest and Belisarius will have all the makings of a great action movie hero.

Skorzeny is already perfectly positioned to be an action movie villain by just holding to the old Nazi template, so no need to discuss him.
 
If written well, I'd be interested in reading it. I'm willing to go with damn near any premise for a book, as long as it's an interesting story.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
I don't know. Every time I started it, or tried to, I stopped it. However, I had
the German ambassador, and General Patton, trying to get the Byzantine emperor to side with either the United States, or Germany.
Which side does the Ottoman Empire side with?

And what role, if any, does Mustafa Kemal Pasha play?
 
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