Byzantines versus Mongols

MAlexMatt

Banned
The Istanbul of today takes up a MUCH larger area than Byzantine Constantinople. Istanbul long ago swallowed the area that was farms and suburban housing back then.
 
The Ottoman bombards worked terribly and often it was just easier to do the traditional tactics of scaling the walls with ladders and siege towers.

But remember, they still worked and it wasn't just monster cannons. They were still forced to blow holes in the wall then take it by storm. This is against the city in its weakest state. I would not want to be the Mongol leader ordering that siege. If they do take it they'll try to starve the city out.
 
But remember, they still worked and it wasn't just monster cannons. They were still forced to blow holes in the wall then take it by storm. This is against the city in its weakest state. I would not want to be the Mongol leader ordering that siege. If they do take it they'll try to starve the city out.

they did blow holes in the wall and try to enter. they failed with heavy casualties.

in the end, it took a gate which was accidentally unlocked to finally enter the city. i forgot which exact gate it was.
 
i still have trouble beilieving hundreds of thousands of people packed into a small 13 square kilometer area inside the city walls. maybe the concept of suburbs simply didn't happen at that time?

anyway, i think the mongols would just raid Byzantium if they fail to take Constantinople.

Even at the cities height, much of the space between the two sets of walls were almost devoid of people.
 
The Ottoman bombards worked terribly and often it was just easier to do the traditional tactics of scaling the walls with ladders and siege towers.

The Ottomans had a cohesive, well-trained force equipped with the finest, most modern gunpowder weapons of the time. The Mongol army is nothing equivalent, and if they can't find a means to surround the city their patience is not infinite. Constantinople is one of the few cities that has what it takes to wear down the Mongols in a contest of wills.
 
Even at the cities height, much of the space between the two sets of walls were almost devoid of people.

i see, so they can hold about 2 million people with that insane density with that amount of space.

my question is, would they sustain that in the modern era, or is it too much people in too small of an area?
 
i see, so they can hold about 2 million people with that insane density with that amount of space.

my question is, would they sustain that in the modern era, or is it too much people in too small of an area?

They never held more than 500K. Much of the space referred to above was used for things like farming, and probably held small villages.
 
they did blow holes in the wall and try to enter. they failed with heavy casualties.

in the end, it took a gate which was accidentally unlocked to finally enter the city. i forgot which exact gate it was.

It was the Kerkaporta Gate. That helped a lot, as it caused sheer bloody panic among the remaining defenders but the city by this point was on it's way out. Giustiniani’s men were fleeing and the Janissaries were overrunning the walls (albeit with appalling casualties) and no relief was on the way. The Byzantines had however put up a bloody good show, thwarting Ottoman tunneling efforts, explosive breaches etc. while being outnumbered by a 40 to 1 margin. Constantinople at it's height, would have had more defenders, better maintained defenses, the full use of it's very powerful Navy (Out of curiosity did the Mongols have any concept of Naval warfare?) and the Mongols did not have the technological weapons of the Ottomans (ie. The Orban Gun and the like). In short, the city would have been constantly resupplied, and well defended and I think the Mongols would not be able to take the city without a stroke of real luck.

Realistically, I think Khan would have looked at Byzantium and gone "Fuck that noise" and went after Europe, probably agreeing to peace with Constantinople.
 
It was the Kerkaporta Gate. That helped a lot, as it caused sheer bloody panic among the remaining defenders but the city by this point was on it's way out. Giustiniani’s men were fleeing and the Janissaries were overrunning the walls (albeit with appalling casualties) and no relief was on the way. The Byzantines had however put up a bloody good show, thwarting Ottoman tunneling efforts, explosive breaches etc. while being outnumbered by a 40 to 1 margin. Constantinople at it's height, would have had more defenders, better maintained defenses, the full use of it's very powerful Navy (Out of curiosity did the Mongols have any concept of Naval warfare?) and the Mongols did not have the technological weapons of the Ottomans (ie. The Orban Gun and the like). In short, the city would have been constantly resupplied, and well defended and I think the Mongols would not be able to take the city without a stroke of real luck.

Realistically, I think Khan would have looked at Byzantium and gone "Fuck that noise" and went after Europe, probably agreeing to peace with Constantinople.

Eh, I think the Mongols would have hoped that their luck with sieges would hold, but like with the Axis at Leningrad they can only partially surround the city and can never choke off all supply to it. The result would be the kind of prolonged warfare the Mongol system, as an all-cavalry force, was not good at. The Mongols reacted badly to a six-month siege, and any attempt to capture or starve out Constantinople will be a lot longer than six months. Constantinople is Mongol Schmuck bait, unless the besiegers have a very large, cohesive infantry force with a lot of Dakka they've not a chance. And the ultimate blow to Mongol prestige with such an unmitigated failure would be disastrous.
 
Farming only actually returned to the interior of the Walls after the 4th Crusade when Constantinople went into decline.

Wasn't all the area behind the Outer Wall used for small villages at this point? I recall reading somewhere that you had to walk for a bit before you got to the city proper.
 
I'm pretty sure the Byzantine system is more effective at fighting Mongols, than the Classical Roman, while the Byzantines themselves, at least at that time, would obviously not be so effective.
 
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