Byzantines Assimilating Turks?
- Thread starter Tongera
- Start date
Depends on if you mean the Turks in Anatolia or the Turks as a whole. There were droves of Turkish peoples, and the Seljuks at that time held allot of Persian territory that it would be pretty redicculously unlikely for the Byzantines to get to, though I suppose you could have the Turks in those areas wiped out by some other power. If you only mean in Anatolia, then it is completely doable. It took centuries for the Turks to be the majority in most areas of Anatolia, and some regions remained largely Greek speaking and Orthodox into the early 20th century. IMO any time before 1204 there is a good chance of complete reassimilation of the Turks in Anatolia. After that it is dicey at best, and you will likely have at least a little mixture between the cultures rather than a true assimilation.
I'd agree if 1204 is picked as "the collapse of the empire" rather than "133 years since Manzikert".
IMO, a lot depends on what happens - if the Turkish and Muslim element isn't reinforced the way it was by the Mongol invasion OTL (the Mongol invasion of the Khwarezm-shah empire, not of Asia Minor), it's doable for an empire in a position to think about it, but it would be a long term process*.
If that does happen, even if the Byzantines do fine, the "Turks" will be a much stronger, much less sorta-kinda leaning Byzantine element in Asia Minor - and Byzantium's only real example of total conversion is Crete.
That being said, I think you're more likely to get the "Turkish" east being vaguely like a new model Digenes Akrites - half Greek and half Turkish instead of half Greek and half Arab, and while loyal to Rome and Orthodoxy not especially passionate about either.
Not in a "eeek, ethnic nationalism" way, but they'll stand out as the Borderer Folk in any cultural survey - just like "Welsh" still isn't the same as the rest of England despite the fact Wales as a part of England de facto has been around since the 13th century and de jure since I believe the Tudors.
To repost a map:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/98/byzantineempires.jpg/
The line between (As I'm using the term) Digenetic Greeks and "pure" Greeks is somewhere between Capadocia eastern border and the Colonea eastern border, depending on how much you can dilute things by population transfers - although a lot of Turks are at least quasi-nomadic, making it more difficult to uproot and resettle.
I don't think Byzantium is strong enough (or perhaps I should say "stable" enough) to have the Turks entering Asia Minor after Manzikert be absorbed right away.
* No, I don't know how long. It's just that the first generation under Byzantine rule will still be used to being independent and so on, so the process will take at least long enough for them to accept being Byzantine subjects.
Not quite sure if I understand what you mean here, but if it is along the lines of "It has less to do with the time since Manzikert and more to do with the empire's dire situation and collapse," then I agree. There is still a substantial Greek population even in the Turkish portions of Anatolia, and by 1204 Anatolia is over half controlled by the empire, meaning that baring a catastrophic meltdown like the 4th crusade reassimilation could possibly be done in full at a considerably later date, ala AoM.
Yes. If we're picking it as an example of the empire in no state to do it, that's one thing, but I think the time elapsed isn't too long.
Tongera: Considerably more work. It's not impossible, IMO (if memory serves Age of Miracles has it work), but instead of having a population relatively indifferent it has one leaning strongly the other way - more like the Moriscos in Spain.
That may be a long term problem, although I don't know enough about why they didn't assimilate to judge how that would apply here.
In Age Of Miracles it was helped along by a huge diaspora of Turks settling in Mesopotamia fleeing Roman invasion, that probably plays a big part in why the east was so "easily" reintegrated.
Yeah. I think AoM tends too strongly towards that sort of thing.
I'm not saying it couldn't happen, just that it and Isaac's Empire 1.0 are definitely the "if things went extraordinarily well" possibilities for Byzantium.
Still, an empire in a position to be worried about the influence of the Sufis is an empire much stronger than OTL at the same point, so it may have the weight to force things.
I'm not sure how Ioannes's 1204-not-a-disaster timeline ( https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=169430 ) handles it - we see the area regained, but I don't know how much it assimilates as opposed to just obeying.
Out of curiosity, what exactly do you mean by "that sort of thing"?
I freely admit that AoM is a best-case scenario (hence the name, the Romans ITTL were well aware they were lucky/blessed). I didn't see a post-1204 Byzantine revival working out any other way. For every AoM, there's ten more universes where the Empire crashes and burns.
Regarding Turkish assimilation in AoM, one thing that makes it seem easy there is that I didn't get detailed until 1400, by which point the Anatolian Turks had already been under Roman rule for a century. But Roman assimilation efforts were faltering (the latter years of John IV Laskaris' reign were covered with a spat of Turkish revolts) until Manuel II, who had fought alongside Turks a lot and respected them, issued the toleration edicts.
And so it's not just me talking about my TL:
Provided the Romans are politically stable and powerful, they should be able to assimilate the Turks. Up until the late 1200s, the west and north of Anatolia (the richest, most populous) remained in Greek hands, so demographics favor them in this scenario, although a post-Mongol second wave lessens the disparity. The golden lure of Constantinople will attract a lot of Turkish nobility and soldiers, who will likely convert to Orthodoxy since that will remove a major barrier to advancement in Roman society.
However depending on how many Greeks move back into the plateau (which would be necessary for Hellenization by John II Komnenos' reign), you might end up with anything from a fully re-hellenized Anatolia to an Anatolia that is Greek on the coasts and the western third with the rest Turkish (although probably Orthodox if Roman rule is maintained for more than 3 generations).
Things like "a huge diaspora of Turks settling in Mesopotamia fleeing Roman invasion" making eastern Anatolia less of a problem than it would be if they hadn't. As you noted yourself, it's a best-case scenario. IMO, as someone who encourages pursuing a bumpy road, it goes a little further than I'd prefer as a rule.
I agree with you on a post-1204 revival not really working any other way, and none of it is ASB or anything, but God has been very kind to the Romans - and Orthodox powers in general.
Of course, OTL one could say God has been very cruel to them, so as long as the writing and research stay good, I'm just going to point it out as an example of the "this is the optimistic version. Anything further is too much."
There is that. But it does seem that the Turks were willing to be swayed in such circumstances.
Then again, this is Rum we're talking about. China as a possible exception, there isn't a more influential polity on the planet.
Example:
IMTL (In My Timeline), you get something that's basically a coating of Hellenization over a Turkic culture that developed as part of the Byzantine salad bowl.
Most of that, of course, is Alexius and his heirs letting the Turks have the plataeu as long as they're loyal to the Empire - something like (if less quasi-independent) AoM's Albanians suits their interests just fine.
Someone who wanted to reHellenize Anatolia in Alexius's shoes would probably have more luck, Alexius is pretty much solely concerned with convincing the Turks that being akritai is more profitable than being raiders.
Last edited:
Offtopic: So is your TL still on hiatus? Just curious because Alexios II is pretty much the most likely point for the empire's fate to turn out better post Manzikert, and yet there aren't any current TL's with a PoD involving him.
Yes. Ze author has become caught up with ponies on one hand, and stuck in regards to events outside the empire on the other.
What is it you need help with in particular? Just ask in the thread, there will be plenty of people willing to help.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=6368056&postcount=275
Also making some revisions in regards to Alexius, although those will be noted when I get back to writing the planned narrative update.
I'd agree that its likely you'll get a merged culture, there'll always be some Turks still hanging around.
However...though natural assimilation will end up this way by the time we get to the 19th century and nationalism (or an analogue) and perhaps a early 20th century nastyness analogue...then you could get even the most Turkish of Anatolia turn Greek.
However...though natural assimilation will end up this way by the time we get to the 19th century and nationalism (or an analogue) and perhaps a early 20th century nastyness analogue...then you could get even the most Turkish of Anatolia turn Greek.