Byzantine point of no return

1453 :D

In all seriousness? Probably the Fourth Crusade, 1204.

It permanently crippled the Romans and delivered a mortal blow that they never truly recovered from.
 

Deleted member 67076

1400 during Timur's invasion of the Ottoman Empire. Here's pretty much the last time you can save the empire by means of someone else destroying the opposition.

If things go perfectly fine- and by that I mean every last person in the House of Osman is slaughtered (not too difficult actually if the Genoan sailors decide not to ferry them to safety) - you can have the Ottomans implode with new Beyliks and kingdoms and principalities forming all over the place.

With this, Manuel II might be able to take back more territory (IOTL he conquered a good chunk of Thrace and Thessalonica and masterfully played off the sides of the interregnum, here he might have even more luck)

The empire is still in deep shit mind you ( they have no men, money, resources and ships) but you've removed the most pressing threat and made the situation (somewhat) more bearable.
 
The Ottoman interregnum was a really good opportunity.

Also, the campaigns of 1439-1444 (the "Crusade of Varna") managed to push pretty deep into Ottoman-held territory before being forced half of the way back. But, while possible, that's still a long shot. The Christian coalition did not have the numbers needed for a thorough sweep through the eastern Balkans, so they'd need to compensate with some very, very good leadership or a nice dose of blind luck.
 
Think there's two distinct but related questions going on here

When was ERE unable to save themselves.

When was ERE unable to be saved by foreign forces, either directly or indirectly helping.

As for the first one, Common opinion would probably to succed defending against the Forth Crusade in 1204 (or thereabout depending on when ERE would have to start changing to be ready for it, given butterfly-nets keeping it arriving on date), The later on is much tougher to guesstimate
 
Think there's two distinct but related questions going on here

When was ERE unable to save themselves.

When was ERE unable to be saved by foreign forces, either directly or indirectly helping.

As for the first one, Common opinion would probably to succed defending against the Forth Crusade in 1204 (or thereabout depending on when ERE would have to start changing to be ready for it, given butterfly-nets keeping it arriving on date), The later on is much tougher to guesstimate

I am not sure you can dinstinguish between the two categories.other powers are always going to be part of the equation......
As a poster above said a more succesful Timurids or a more disastrous Ottoman interregnum in conjuction with better Byzantine leadership could lead to Byzantine survival and possibly revival.......
 
The Ottoman interregnum was a really good opportunity.

Of which they had no capability of taking advantage of. Which is a big problem for any post 1204 timeline, they're flat broke with no real ability to take advantage of opportunities in front of them.
 

Deleted member 67076

Of which they had no capability of taking advantage of. Which is a big problem for any post 1204 timeline, they're flat broke with no real ability to take advantage of opportunities in front of them.

Eh, I wouldn't say that until 1347.
 
The huge problem with the Byzantines was that they kept doing the civil war game even when they were surrounded by enemies,should a string of capable and undisputed leaders existed I think things would be different.....
 
imo point of no return is before the start of the civil war between John Kantakouzenos and John V after the death of Andronikos III.

IMO if the civil war can be averted and John remains a steadfast supporter of Andronikos heir and does not seek out the aid of the Ottomans then I can see the Byzantine empire retaining most of its European territories. Plus without the civil war you would not have the ravages that would occur in the area due to it and the byzantines would be in a storng positon. However after the civil war the byzantines were too exhausted to recover and it became a matter of when not if they would become annexed or vassalized by the Ottoman Empire.
 
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