[Byzantine / Norman WI] - Norman Kingdom of Greece

The Byzantine-Norman Wars that took place in the 11th and 12 centuries were an exhaustive, bloody process that wound up draining both powers of desperately needed forces. Deaths of key leaders, German & Venetian involvement and political infighting on both sides no doubt played a part in prolonging the conflict.

But, suppose the Normans were able to carve out key early victories under Robert Guiscard, enough so that over time, portions of Greece proper joined the Norman dominions in Sicily and Southern Italy. Enough, that rather than be King of Sicily, the Normans (and any successors) are crowned as Kings of Greece.

Thoughts?
 
I don't think the Guiscard could do it and wouldn't the title probably be that of Emperor, if they manage to get Constantinople? Otherwise, conservative option, they manage to snatch something defensible like Peloponnese, especially later, if they survive and something akin to OTL's IV Crusade happens?

It's a longshot, but the Normans could have been succesful in 1185, although I doubt this sort of earlier Latin Empire could have lasted.

Of course the reverse is also possible, with the Byzantines managing to win out and recover at least Sicily and the Catepanate.
 
It might survive.

There is a bit of a historical amusement here. Guiscard has a son in Bohemond, who IOTL Alexios' daughter took quite a shining to. It isn't outside the realm of possibility that a more successful Norman campaign could have led to a treaty that would be infinitely better than merely King of Greece.

Guiscard agrees to become Co-Emperor of the Romans, with authority over Greece and Italy, Alexios in Anatolia and Thrace. No seniority of either, but effectively a division - a pact that is cemented by a marriage between Bohemond and Eudokia (with the interesting opening that their child could in theory be a future successor).

It opens interesting doors - the division between Catholic and Orthodox is in place, but Guiscard is able to knock on the Popes door if needs be - which puts the Co-Emperors in a position to nip the Schism in the bud early. (I've recently taken fancy to the idea that the Pope of Rome, the Patriarch of Constantinople and the Patriarch of Alexandria could form a "mini-Pentarchate", the idea being that Alexandria could act as a tie-break between the other two. All of whom are equal.)
 
Given that the Normans were also entrenched against German and Venetian opposition in Italy proper, I didn't think it likely they take Constantinople. I was more mulling the likes of what was taken after the 4th Crusade, including Achaea, Athens, the Archipelago, Thessalonica and various isles like Cephalonia, Argos, etc... with Thrace proper still in Byzantine hands. Enough to create a Kingdom, but not enough to force the issue of Emperorship. I figured Byzantium would fall into something akin to the 4th Crusade's aftermath, with Constantinople, Nicaea and elsewhere becoming fonts of claimants.

The idea of Bohemond and Anna (who was the one infatuated with him) marrying is interesting, especially if the affair of Robert's succession divides his estates upon death between South Italian Lombards and newly appointed Normans in Greece. It's not quite what I was looking for, though. I was more into Catholicizing and Normanizing Greece and Magna Graecia! :p
 
Given that the Normans were also entrenched against German and Venetian opposition in Italy proper, I didn't think it likely they take Constantinople. I was more mulling the likes of what was taken after the 4th Crusade, including Achaea, Athens, the Archipelago, Thessalonica and various isles like Cephalonia, Argos, etc... with Thrace proper still in Byzantine hands. Enough to create a Kingdom, but not enough to force the issue of Emperorship. I figured Byzantium would fall into something akin to the 4th Crusade's aftermath, with Constantinople, Nicaea and elsewhere becoming fonts of claimants.

The idea of Bohemond and Anna (who was the one infatuated with him) marrying is interesting, especially if the affair of Robert's succession divides his estates upon death between South Italian Lombards and newly appointed Normans in Greece. It's not quite what I was looking for, though. I was more into Catholicizing and Normanizing Greece and Magna Graecia! :p

(I got my daughters wrong, nooooooo!)

It isn't like the Romans don't have those same opponents, but if the Normans are able to try and take all of Greece - that is still one hell of a territory to absorb. Plus, it is populated by Romans. They have a history of being quite stubborn about their faith.
 
It isn't like the Romans don't have those same opponents, but if the Normans are able to try and take all of Greece - that is still one hell of a territory to absorb. Plus, it is populated by Romans. They have a history of being quite stubborn about their faith.
I think the longer the Normans hold it the more likely they could Catholicize coastal regions with both converts and settlers. Though depending on their relations to the Pope, they might just go the opposite way and go Orthodox!
 
Albania-Epirus seems to me the easier target for Catholicization, Morea/Peloponnese much less so. It would be cool to revive the title of King of Epirus...
 
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