Byzantine Collapse after Manzikert and the death of Alexius Commenius

As we all know, the collapse of the Byzantien Empire was a historical fluke and frankly the Caesars should be colonizing Epilson Eradani right about now.

But after Manzikert, the Empire's situation looked pretty damn grim. By 1077 the Turks had established themselves in Nicaea; Robert Guiscard was marching east; the Pechenegs crossed the border; etc.

So, let's suppose that in 1082, Alexius Commenius dies mysteriously. It's not poison, but in the ensuing knife fight the empire is paralyzed. Robert Guiscard can march on Constantinople; but I really don't think he can keep it even if it falls.

Wither Rome?
 
Hmmm. Bulgarian revival seems likely in the circumstances, and a sort of proto "Latin Empire" in Constantinople. This will be supported by the Normans, I would think, and if some sort of Crusade does still happen, this will reinforce the Latin Empire still further. I still think though, that at this point Byzantine culture and prestige in the Balkans will mean that whichever dynasty takes over Constantinople will be heavily Romanised, and is likely to adopt Orthodoxy and call itself the Roman Empire.
 

OS fan

Banned
I guess that the Seljuks would take the city, the remaining empire and some time later also the Bulgarians who might fight for a while.
 
I guess that the Seljuks would take the city, the remaining empire and some time later also the Bulgarians who might fight for a while.
Umm how the city is still impenetrable and the navy is still a bit alright not to mention the Venetians just recently destroyed the Norman fleet. No a Norman conquest of Constantinople is damn unlikely. Balkans sure not Constantinople unless the emperor surrenders the city or is betrayed by his soldiers.

Same with the turks, they have a crap navy so they cant invade constantinople by sea. Take all of Anatolia sure but they can touch constantinople. Plus Venice will do everything in its power to halt the Normans.
 
If Byzantine Empire colapses after Manzikert Venice can't do much about the Normans as long as they are allied with the Croats. It would be quite likely that a Croats might use the new found situation to put an end to Venice after almost three centuries of vieing for control of the Adriatic with them.
 
Umm how the city is still impenetrable and the navy is still a bit alright not to mention the Venetians just recently destroyed the Norman fleet. No a Norman conquest of Constantinople is damn unlikely. Balkans sure not Constantinople unless the emperor surrenders the city or is betrayed by his soldiers.

Same with the turks, they have a crap navy so they cant invade constantinople by sea. Take all of Anatolia sure but they can touch constantinople. Plus Venice will do everything in its power to halt the Normans.

Even if Constantinople doesn't fall immediately, what use is it if the Normans are in Thessaly and the Turks are ruling Anatolia from Nicaea?
 
Could we see an earlier Turkish menace in South East Europe in the longer run? The Sultanate of Rum on the Danube (and beyond) by 1150 or 1204 at latest?
 

OS fan

Banned
Umm how the city is still impenetrable and the navy is still a bit alright not to mention the Venetians just recently destroyed the Norman fleet.

Same with the turks, they have a crap navy so they cant invade constantinople by sea.

But if the Turks managed to take all of the countryside, how are the Constantinopolitans surviving, without food supply? The city was a lot bigger than in 1453.
 
But if the Turks managed to take all of the countryside, how are the Constantinopolitans surviving, without food supply? The city was a lot bigger than in 1453.

That's a fair sized if. But even if they do, Constantinople can still import food by sea.
 
That's a fair sized if. But even if they do, Constantinople can still import food by sea.
Where is it getting money from if the empire is collapses and thus not providing them with funds?

Full Disclosure: I find a Guiscard conquest of the eastern empire to be a pretty awesome TL idea.
 

MAlexMatt

Banned
Where is it getting money from if the empire is collapses and thus not providing them with funds?

Full Disclosure: I find a Guiscard conquest of the eastern empire to be a pretty awesome TL idea.

The City itself was rather wealthy, not to mention very well equipped to withstand a siege. I can't give you exact numbers, but it could probably feed its own population out of stores for months. Buying food probably wouldn't be necessary, requisitions are still possible. Just sail where the Normans and Sel'juks aren't.
 
Where is it getting money from if the empire is collapses and thus not providing them with funds?

Full Disclosure: I find a Guiscard conquest of the eastern empire to be a pretty awesome TL idea.

I wonder how much they could do here. Even if the Normans win battles, how much can they hold down?

Would be interesting to explore.
 
The City itself was rather wealthy, not to mention very well equipped to withstand a siege. I can't give you exact numbers, but it could probably feed its own population out of stores for months. Buying food probably wouldn't be necessary, requisitions are still possible. Just sail where the Normans and Sel'juks aren't.

This seems optimistic. IMO it's no coincidence that the city's population collapsed at the same time the imperial breadbasket in Egypt was lost....
 

MAlexMatt

Banned
This seems optimistic. IMO it's no coincidence that the city's population collapsed at the same time the imperial breadbasket in Egypt was lost....

Because it was a different city back then.

I mean, you can hardly compare Mediterranean civilization in the 7th versus 11th centuries.
 
Don't temp...

Ok, screw it. Can you recommend any books on the Seljuqs or Rum in general?

Rum as in Turkish Anatolia? Unfortunately not.

Most of my reading on Asia Minor is about how the Byzantines fared in what they held of it, not how the Turkish controlled areas did.

I have done some reading on how the Turcomen tribes screwed over Armenia, so that may be useful here:

http://rbedrosian.com/dissert.html
 
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