(Byron Lives) Alternate Italian Situation

[Justin Pickard]

I was thinking that Young Italy would have regressed somewhat upon realizing that a unification of the entire Italian nation was not particularly pragmatic. Also, with less support for such a national movement, the membership of the former Carbonari might have turned their attentions 'outwards' to the rest of continental Europe.

I had the vague idea that Engels would be killed when the Prussian 1848 Revolution turned sour and Friedrich Wilhelm IV released the armed forces on the rebels. Marx, at this time, with no 'Eighteenth Brumaire', was firmly settled in London as the European Correspondant for the New York Tribune. Garibaldi probably fell in with him whilst he was in London in 1859-60.

OTOH, the political climate in northern Italy should have been favorable to create a haven for European revolutionaries, nihilists and in general romantic adventurers.

I like this image a lot, although for how such a climate of toleration and liberty could be sustained is a tricky question.

In TTL there is an Anglo-Graeco-French Triple Alliance, albeit an alliance where the British and the French are somewhat wary of each other. So, Savoy-Piedmont-Sardinia-Tuscany has favourable relations with the French, whilst the two Republics are supported more by the British, and retain some (fairly cool) ties to the former Habsburg lands.

(how's the colonial situation, btw? the Orleans should have stayed out of the Mexico fiasco, but this might have created opportunities for an earlier expansion in the Far east, and maximised the risk of clashes with the British)

I haven't thought too much about the colonial situation at the moment, tbh. All suggestions are most welcome. In the longer term, an all out war against the Ottoman Empire in the late 1870s will culminate is a dismemberment of territories amongst the European powers.

I would quite like to see a Anglo-French joint-ruled Egypt, some colonial possessions for Greece, and some Italian territories in North Africa. In the longer-term, I think the race for Africa could be significantly more interesting.

In the Adriatic, the legacy of Venice would draw the Northern italians toward Dalmatia; they would be quite friendly to Greece, the romantic movement is more than enough to ensure this.

Excellent - that's what I was aiming for.

I might start some new posts on the board about the German situation, the Belgian Wars (don't ask), and some stuff about the two Polands. Also, I'll eventually need to seek out some help for ACW-related expertise.

Anyone interested?

 

[LordKalvan]

I was thinking that Young Italy would have regressed somewhat upon realizing that a unification of the entire Italian nation was not particularly pragmatic. Also, with less support for such a national movement, the membership of the former Carbonari might have turned their attentions 'outwards' to the rest of continental Europe.

Actually, Mazzini founded a "Young Europe" too. In a way, mazzini was a man of the past (notwithstanding his progressive ideas). The 1860's are a time for younger and bolder men. I will give you 3-4 names, who will come back many times in TTL: Enrico Cernuschi (leader of the Milan insurrection in 1848, OTL exiled in France where he founded Banque Paribas, explorer and art collector in Far East); Francesco Nullo (cavalry officer, participated in Milan insurrection, died charging Russian troops in Poland during the 1863 insurrection - might have been an Italian Custer); Luciano Manara (lawyer and soldier - participated in milan insurrection, OTL died defending the Roman Republic in 1849); Luigi Torelli (economist and politician - participated in the Milan insurrection. For a change, OTL neither died young or was exiled). These men are well aware of the European realities, speak 2-3 languages and are the wave of the future (at least in the 1860s!). All of them are strongly federalists and republicans (their maitre-a-penser is Carlo Cattaneo) as well as anti-clerical

I had the vague idea that Engels would be killed when the Prussian 1848 Revolution turned sour and Friedrich Wilhelm IV released the armed forces on the rebels. Marx, at this time, with no 'Eighteenth Brumaire', was firmly settled in London as the European Correspondant for the New York Tribune. Garibaldi probably fell in with him whilst he was in London in 1859-60.

That would be a pity. Engels (if nothing else) was a great journalist, a la Hemingway. I read some of his reportages from the 1859 and the 1866 wars which might have been written today.
Garibaldi might have get in touch with Marx, but he was never attracted by the Communist ideology: Garibaldi was a socialist (more or less) and a free mason, and his ideas were more in terms of workers cooperatives

I like this image a lot, although for how such a climate of toleration and liberty could be sustained is a tricky question.

OTL, a generation of the best Northern Italian thinkers and patriots was wasted in the failed insurrection of 1848. TTL, they survived and prospered. Notwithstanding the political repression, Austrian rule in lombardy and Veneto was generally enlightened, and supportive of industry and commerce. The great links with Paris (strengthened during the Napoleonic period) are still very vital. In many ways, Northern Italy in 1860s is much more progressive and in touch with Europe than the same region 100 years later. Once the dam is broken (and the austrian blanket is not replaced with a Piedmontese one) there will be a true Renaissance here, in cultural and economic terms.

In TTL there is an Anglo-Graeco-French Triple Alliance, albeit an alliance where the British and the French are somewhat wary of each other. So, Savoy-Piedmont-Sardinia-Tuscany has favourable relations with the French, whilst the two Republics are supported more by the British, and retain some (fairly cool) ties to the former Habsburg lands.

I have a few doubts about the good relations with the Habsburgs. I would expect very good relations with Hungarians and probably Slovenes. Bad relations with Austria proper and with Croats. Trieste, Istria and dalamatia are still coveted by Venetians. The foreign policy mainstay should be the British alliance. Garibaldi's escapade in the ACW should be also good to open a door in the USA (even if in this era they are still very much closed upon themselves)

I haven't thought too much about the colonial situation at the moment, tbh. All suggestions are most welcome. In the longer term, an all out war against the Ottoman Empire in the late 1870s will culminate is a dismemberment of territories amongst the European powers.

Russia has been not touched by events in Europe (the disappointment at the good results of 1848 are tempered by the Prussian alliance). The Polish will revolt on schedule TTL too, and I expect that Italians and french will be sympathetic but will not do much. Hungary might get involved, though. I agree that in the late 1870's Russia will start again looking toward Costantinople; however, my guess is that once again the European powers will try to stop her.

I would quite like to see a Anglo-French joint-ruled Egypt, some colonial possessions for Greece, and some Italian territories in North Africa. In the longer-term, I think the race for Africa could be significantly more interesting.

There is some Italian interest in Tunisia, which in any case is a contentious bone with France. maybe, if France gets involved in the Germanies, Piedmont will try some power game there.
The republics will be more interested in the eastern trade (shade of venice), and will certainly try to acquire some coaling basis in the Red Sea (Erythrea, like OTL). Nino Bixio captained an expedition to the far East in 1871, and died there (cholera). TTL Italian republics are richer and more interested in commerce than OTL Italy. I would expect some purchase of rights in the eastern Indies, maybe Philippines or Pacific too. Interestingly, this might also lead to some italians migrating to Australia, very much in advance of OTL (the migratory current toward the Americas will be weaker, though).
Egypt will depend on the Anglo-French relations: I would not mind an Italo-British co-dominium (there is a substantial Italian colony in Alexandria)

Excellent - that's what I was aiming for.

I might start some new posts on the board about the German situation, the Belgian Wars (don't ask), and some stuff about the two Polands. Also, I'll eventually need to seek out some help for ACW-related expertise.

Anyone interested?

The Italian democracy experiment should have some spill overs in the Balkans too (and in Greece: maybe greece will be modernised much quicker). Hungary will influence Roumania and Galicia.

 

[Justin Pickard]

The 1860's are a time for younger and bolder men. I will give you 3-4 names, who will come back many times in TTL: Enrico Cernuschi (leader of the Milan insurrection in 1848, OTL exiled in France where he founded Banque Paribas, explorer and art collector in Far East); Francesco Nullo (cavalry officer, participated in Milan insurrection, died charging Russian troops in Poland during the 1863 insurrection - might have been an Italian Custer); Luciano Manara (lawyer and soldier - participated in milan insurrection, OTL died defending the Roman Republic in 1849); Luigi Torelli (economist and politician - participated in the Milan insurrection. For a change, OTL neither died young or was exiled). These men are well aware of the European realities, speak 2-3 languages and are the wave of the future (at least in the 1860s!). All of them are strongly federalists and republicans (their maitre-a-penser is Carlo Cattaneo) as well as anti-clerical

Can you link me to any more information about these chaps?

OTL, a generation of the best Northern Italian thinkers and patriots was wasted in the failed insurrection of 1848. TTL, they survived and prospered. Notwithstanding the political repression, Austrian rule in lombardy and Veneto was generally enlightened, and supportive of industry and commerce. The great links with Paris (strengthened during the Napoleonic period) are still very vital. In many ways, Northern Italy in 1860s is much more progressive and in touch with Europe than the same region 100 years later. Once the dam is broken (and the austrian blanket is not replaced with a Piedmontese one) there will be a true Renaissance here, in cultural and economic terms.

So a 'second wave' of Industrialisation tempered by Renaissance ideals starting in North Italy? A centre for revolutionaries, writers, artists etc. Cool.

Russia has been not touched by events in Europe (the disappointment at the good results of 1848 are tempered by the Prussian alliance). The Polish will revolt on schedule TTL too, and I expect that Italians and french will be sympathetic but will not do much. Hungary might get involved, though. I agree that in the late 1870's Russia will start again looking toward Costantinople; however, my guess is that once again the European powers will try to stop her.

After the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, I see Russia vs. Greece in the race for Constantinople (especially pertinant since, by the 1870s, Constantine Saxe-Coburg is King of Greece).

The republics will be more interested in the eastern trade (shade of venice), and will certainly try to acquire some coaling basis in the Red Sea (Erythrea, like OTL). Nino Bixio captained an expedition to the far East in 1871, and died there (cholera). TTL Italian republics are richer and more interested in commerce than OTL Italy. I would expect some purchase of rights in the eastern Indies, maybe Philippines or Pacific too. Interestingly, this might also lead to some italians migrating to Australia, very much in advance of OTL (the migratory current toward the Americas will be weaker, though).
Egypt will depend on the Anglo-French relations: I would not mind an Italo-British co-dominium (there is a substantial Italian colony in Alexandria)

So, an Italian Empire isn't out of the question, then?

 

[LordKalvan]

Can you link me to any more information about these chaps?

I'll find some links for you (most of the informations are in Italian, alas). However, remember thst both Manara and Nullo died quite young OTL. There is not a lot on them

So a 'second wave' of Industrialisation tempered by Renaissance ideals starting in North Italy? A centre for revolutionaries, writers, artists etc. Cool.?

That is the core of my vision for TTL. OTL, the Italian Swiss cantons played a role; and obviously both Paris and London werevery important. In all cases, revolutionaries and free thinkers were always looked upon with suspicion. TTL, Milan, Bologna and Venice should be quite different

After the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, I see Russia vs. Greece in the race for Constantinople (especially pertinant since, by the 1870s, Constantine Saxe-Coburg is King of Greece).?

I have a feeling that the next major European war will be fought in the Balkans, to decide if Russia is going to get Constantinople or not. Greece alone cannot obviously oppose Russia. A "liberal" coalition (UK, France, Hungary, Poland and Italy) might end up confronting the "reactionaries": Russia, Austria and Prussia.

So, an Italian Empire isn't out of the question, then?

in the 19th century, everyone dreams of empires. Even the most democratic and liberal nations. The republics of North Italy should not be an exception to the rule. Again, I would like to bring a new twixt to the usual carnage and domination: I would place my bet on a better and more integrated Middle East