Bypass Sicily and Italy?

Aber said:
But once you've invaded France instead of Italy, you're committed to feeding French civilians instead of Italian civilians, and so there is no net gain in shipping?

You're missing my point: the net gain is before the invasion, to enable it to go forward sooner. Afterward, it's all OTL.
 
You're missing my point: the net gain is before the invasion, to enable it to go forward sooner. Afterward, it's all OTL.

I think I get you now.

You are comparing invading the south of France in mid- 1943 with the OTL invasion of 1944. You believe that this would be a more effective use of resources and end the war quicker than an Italian mainland campaign.

I think I disagree because this will leave Italy (and its Navy and units in the Balkans) still in the war, eliminate Foggia heavy bomber bases, and just move the forces involved in the Italian campaign to another battlefield, with its own mountains. It might payoff in 1944 post Cobra when the forces in southern France would be better placed for pursuit but crossing the upper Rhine is much less of a problem to Germany than losing the Ruhr.
 
Aber said:
I think I get you now.

You are comparing invading the south of France in mid- 1943 with the OTL invasion of 1944. You believe that this would be a more effective use of resources and end the war quicker than an Italian mainland campaign.

I think I disagree because this will leave Italy (and its Navy and units in the Balkans) still in the war, eliminate Foggia heavy bomber bases, and just move the forces involved in the Italian campaign to another battlefield, with its own mountains. It might payoff in 1944 post Cobra when the forces in southern France would be better placed for pursuit but crossing the upper Rhine is much less of a problem to Germany than losing the Ruhr.
You've got me. I also think it's pretty likely Italy doesn't remain belligerent in this scheme, that Mussolini is brought down & Italy surrenders without invasion being necessary. That may be asking a bit much....
 
You've got me. I also think it's pretty likely Italy doesn't remain belligerent in this scheme, that Mussolini is brought down & Italy surrenders without invasion being necessary. That may be asking a bit much....

Same issue with Italy as Vichy France:

Come with 2 divisions and we will fight you; come with 20 and we will join you.
 
Aber said:
Same issue with Italy as Vichy France:

Come with 2 divisions and we will fight you; come with 20 and we will join you.
Possible. I don't have the grasp of Italian politics to know. I understood the loss of Sicily had the same effect as Japan's loss of Saipan: it brought down the gov't; in Italy, the opposition was ready to change sides, & would.

If anybody can say definitively, I'd be happy for clarification.

I rely heavily on Grigg, here; if he was wrong...
 
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