Butterflying the Cathar Crusade

From what I read that the death of Douce II of Provence is one of the things that caused the Cathar crusade, her widowed Aunt married her fiance, so a surviving Douce II might have helped Raymond of Toulouse..unless if Douce II becomes a Cathar perfect like his OTL wife.
 
From what I read that the death of Douce II of Provence is one of the things that caused the Cathar crusade, her widowed Aunt married her fiance, so a surviving Douce II might have helped Raymond of Toulouse..unless if Douce II becomes a Cathar perfect like his OTL wife.

You mean having Douce surviving childhood and marrying Raymond VI of Toulouse ? While a successful unification of both Provences could help, it also means a resolute hostility of Aragon and the issue of having the Trencavel lands in the middle of the Raymondin principality remains.
 
You mean having Douce surviving childhood and marrying Raymond VI of Toulouse ? While a successful unification of both Provences could help, it also means a resolute hostility of Aragon and the issue of having the Trencavel lands in the middle of the Raymondin principality remains.
But at least the Cathars are butterflied in this scenario...the possible problems are the plantagenets and aragon.

Children for Douce and Raymond
*Eleanor b.1178 m. Philippe Auguste(b)
*Constance b. 1180 m. Sancho of Navarre
*Raymond b. 1182 m. Eleanor of Brittany
*Alfonso b. 1190
*Matilde b. 1195
 
But at least the Cathars are butterflied in this scenario...the possible problems are the plantagenets and aragon.

Children for Douce and Raymond
*Eleanor b.1178 m. Philippe Auguste(b)
*Constance b. 1180 m. Sancho of Navarre
*Raymond b. 1182 m. Eleanor of Brittany
*Alfonso b. 1190
*Matilde b. 1195

Whye would the Cathars be butterflied ? They were members of the middle class and small aristocracy, not comital dynasties, and were already present around Douce's death.
 
Because his OTL second wife tolerated Cathars and became a cathar parfait and he was a target of a cathar crusade, here he might not be the target.
Beatrice was no longer Raymond's wife at the time of the Crusade and she was never mentioned as a driver of a pro-Cathar policy. The first goal of the Crusade were the Trencavel lands, where Cathar toleration was more prominent, and their fate could not be changed by the identity of Raymond's wife.
 
Beatrice was no longer Raymond's wife at the time of the Crusade and she was never mentioned as a driver of a pro-Cathar policy. The first goal of the Crusade were the Trencavel lands, where Cathar toleration was more prominent, and their fate could not be changed by the identity of Raymond's wife.
But I think Raymond's fate can still be changed by the change of wife right?
 
But I think Raymond's fate can still be changed by the change of wife right?

At the time of the Crusade, he was not a Cathar, nor married to one. In fact he was himself a Crusader, though not a very keen one. He failed to show his determination to address the Cathar heresy, I do not see how having a different wife could change him. No one ever accused Joan of England of being a Cathar, but that did not prevent Raymond's fall. The only difference would be he would not have an ally in Aragon.
 
At the time of the Crusade, he was not a Cathar, nor married to one. In fact he was himself a Crusader, though not a very keen one. He failed to show his determination to address the Cathar heresy, I do not see how having a different wife could change him. No one ever accused Joan of England of being a Cathar, but that did not prevent Raymond's fall. The only difference would be he would not have an ally in Aragon.
But he would be forced to ally with Philippe Auguste instead, which means he is forced to give up Trencavel lands to him.
 
But he would be forced to ally with Philippe Auguste instead, which means he is forced to give up Trencavel lands to him.
Only if Philip chose to ally with a branded heretic or even to concern with southern business. OTL, the Kings did not act until after the Monfort's defeat.
 
Only if Philip chose to ally with a branded heretic or even to concern with southern business. OTL, the Kings did not act until after the Monfort's defeat.
But I think Raymond's marriage to Douce will butterfly his being branded as heretic.
 
But I think Raymond's marriage to Douce will butterfly his being branded as heretic.

I am afraid your lectures are misleading you : Raymond’s former wife had nothing to do with he being designated protector of heretics by the papal legate. In fact no official ever mentionned her. If Douce could have influenced him to push hard on heretics, that can be a PoD, but butterflying Beatrice Trencavel is not, as she had no influence whatsoever. If you can read french, I recommand Macé, Les Comtes de Toulouse et leur entourage.
 
I am afraid your lectures are misleading you : Raymond’s former wife had nothing to do with he being designated protector of heretics by the papal legate. In fact no official ever mentionned her. If Douce could have influenced him to push hard on heretics, that can be a PoD, but butterflying Beatrice Trencavel is not, as she had no influence whatsoever. If you can read french, I recommand Macé, Les Comtes de Toulouse et leur entourage.
I think Douce will advice her husband against the heretics since they have lots of enemies.
 
I think Douce will advice her husband against the heretics since they have lots of enemies.

Maybe, but since we know next of nothing about her, it is an editorial decision. Raymond VI was not the wisest or the more resolute of the Raymond line, that is for sure. He could have played his hand well and break the Trencavel by using the heresy, though the price to pay would be a re-organization of the Church in his lands. Even the inconstitent, but more energetic, policy of Raymond VII was more efficient than the choices of the old count.
 
Maybe, but since we know next of nothing about her, it is an editorial decision. Raymond VI was not the wisest or the more resolute of the Raymond line, that is for sure. He could have played his hand well and break the Trencavel by using the heresy, though the price to pay would be a re-organization of the Church in his lands. Even the inconstitent, but more energetic, policy of Raymond VII was more efficient than the choices of the old count.
Or she will be the reason why France and Hohenstauffens will have more influence in the south..
 
Top