Butterfly away the Song Dynasty

@darthfanta, @kholieken, I suppose those are good points. How about during the Five Dynasties period? Shatuo Turks seemed strongly inclined to hire others of their own race, the Dada seemed to congregate in their own communities. During the Northern and Southern Dynasties Period the Northern Wei Xianbei placed a clear distinction between themselves and the Chinese for almost half of their reign. Perhaps this might indicate a clear separation in the minds of the common Chinese?

As for the question of whether China can save itself it seems that it's more of an issue of "running out the clock". At the certain point the Mongolian horse advantage becomes not enough to overcome China's industrial and population advantage even during a time of civil war. It'd certainly seem ridiculous to have modern Mongolia conquer the entirety of Modern China on its own. Even if that somehow happens they're not going to hold it for several generations. At what tech level does China become virtually indestructible to Mongolian conquest? Since conquest dynasties crippled tech and economic development and we're talking about a surviving (or only moderately affected) China let's use European tech as a reference instead.

My guess would be that by the equivalent of the OTL 1700's conquest would become extremely difficult. By that time guns are the primary weapons of armies and those require quite extensive industry to manufacture and supply with ammunition. This means your highly mobile cavalry invading China is either going to be gun cavalry with artillery trailing a supply line (vulnerable to Chinese counterattack) or you are sending people with bows to fight guys with guns.
 
Excluding a group of people makes them see you as other too so that might have been the case since the Northern and Southern Dynasties period. Still took the Han Chinese ages to overturn the invaders though. The invaders had the time equivalent to a full dynasty.

That said once China gets muskets and decent artillery with global trade you've got the Mongolians or other central Asian nations by the balls. Can't attack into central Asia yet but any attempt to enter China proper is going to be hilariously ineffective. Song could be argued to have been approaching industrialization (or at least been a few centuries off). If that last dynasty could have retained the north (quite likely without Song's epic flailing incompetence) with its coal reserves and maintained a good defensive line then they probably didn't need to stall much further past 1400. After that it's just waiting for mechanized warfare to roll around (pun intended) and Central Asia will be absolutely helpless.

Chance of that happening was extremely high. Northern Wei up to that point was the only time that much of China fell into foreign hands and that particular conquest dynasty didn't slow down China's development at all. I think Later Zhou almost retook the north and made such a scenario a reality if it wasn't for an unlikely bout of disease, then being succeeded by the worst possible candidate (Song). China was already extremely hard to conquer. An Lushan failed with an enormous army and Jin was almost crushed until the Li Cunxu came along. Even then Han Chinese reasserted dominance and almost won. This suggests a strong tendency towards resisting northern invasion even then as China was starting to make that final sprint to the "finish line".

Thoughts? Do you think Later Zhou could have taken the 16 prefectures?
 
Actually I might change the question a little. China was conquered in the past but continued marching along with its tech development. How likely would it be that China is never conquered by the type of invaders who would cripple China's tech development?

The Tang seemed to not be completely ethnically Chinese but they showed no distinction between themselves and the Han. They shared Chinese values and allowed them to push China into a golden age (let's face it, as the majority the Han probably did most of the heavy lifting making the golden age)

We'll allow conquest of China by such invaders in this timeline, just not those like the Manchu who stifled tech development to maintain control. How likely is it with a three kingdoms POD for China to avoid the type of invaders who would cripple or inhibit China's even economic or tech development?

On that note was the Han or Qin Emperors significantly free of Central Asian ancestry? Was the ancestry of the Chinese and its emperors ever that clearly distinct from those in Central Asia?
 
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I think you still use too much 'Han nationalism' in viewing China history.

what about Beiyang army ? Hundred Days reform ? Kangxi-Qianlong Golden Age ? what about fighting two Opium wars ? did Manchu really stifle China development ?

I did not doubt Qing did many thing to ensure stability of their own elite position, But 1) many native dynasties would do same thing (look at Ming stipend for their own family or current Communist party princelings) 2) Social Stability is Good Thing, and Duty of every government to preserve. after Taiping, would any dynasty accept any changes from West ? 3) surviving social change is extremely difficult. That China, unlike 90% of Asia, escape outright European domination is already Qing achievement.
 
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allowed them to push China into a golden age (let's face it, as the majority the Han probably did most of the heavy lifting making the golden age)
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- Li Shimin is Khan of Turkic peoples, he use Turkic cavalry to conquer Central Asia.
- many prominent Buddhist monk during Tang have non-Chinese origins
- Sogdiana merchant is important in Tang economy.
- early Tang maintain some non-Chinese custom, Li Shimin order state military ceremony for his sister burials, its very non-tradutional at that time, in fairness she did raise an army, overall Tang view on women and Buddhism is very non-Chinese at that time.

and don't forget many many wars during Sui dynasty rise and fall, and many many wars during Later Tang dynasty. did that not stifle China development ? Huang Chao alone probably push back 100 years of southern development.

argument that there are 'good dynasty' and 'bad dynasty' is suspect. Some are better than others, but even Yuan promoted China trade, foreign contact and tech development. accepting that All dynasty had good and bad achievement is important.
 
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- Li Shimin is Khan of Turkic peoples, he use Turkic cavalry to conquer Central Asia.
- many prominent Buddhist monk during Tang have non-Chinese origins
- Sogdiana merchant is important in Tang economy.
- early Tang maintain some non-Chinese custom, Li Shimin order state military ceremony for his sister burials, its very non-tradutional at that time, in fairness she did raise an army, overall Tang view on women and Buddhism is very non-Chinese at that time.

and don't forget many many wars during Sui dynasty rise and fall, and many many wars during Later Tang dynasty. did that not stifle China development ? Huang Chao alone probably push 100 years of southern development.

argument that there are 'good dynasty' and 'bad dynasty' is suspect. Some are better than others, but even Yuan promoted China trade, foreign contact and tech development. accepting that All dynasty had good and bad achievement is important.
Actually,the wars did stifle development.After a dynasty collapses,it generally takes decades if not a full century before the empire fully recovers.For example,it’s known that the Tang Dynasty’s population did not reach Sui levels until Xuanzong’s reign,which is something like 100 years after Tang has unified China.
 
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The Han Chinese lineage is rather vague. Those early Chinese tribes assimilated and interbred with those around them some of them which were eventually driven into Central Asia, among them the ancestors of the Xianbei. For all we know there could have been Xianbei blood and the blood of the ancestors of other Central Asians in the Han Chinese all along. The Han might be quite similar to the French in that if you look at French ancestry it's more of a mix of all those around them, sealed together by a common culture. Just remember in Chinese the character for Han is union of the five tongues. It suggested that even that initial stock may initially have been 5 different races joined together, one of which, the Qin lived in the west and was rather good with horses.

In short, the "Han" race was always a bit of a mix so if you say you are Han, you adhere to the Han culture and you have most of that rich blend in your ancestry you are Chinese. The Han race seems to be defined more by its variation than by its purity. If it wasn't the "Han" would have disappeared not long after their civilization started. I seem to recall that Qin was assimilating some tribes to its west before Qin Shi Huang was even born so that blood might very well be running through his veins.
 
Actually I might change the question a little. China was conquered in the past but continued marching along with its tech development. How likely would it be that China is never conquered by the type of invaders who would cripple China's tech development?

The Tang seemed to not be completely ethnically Chinese but they showed no distinction between themselves and the Han. They shared Chinese values and allowed them to push China into a golden age (let's face it, as the majority the Han probably did most of the heavy lifting making the golden age)

We'll allow conquest of China by such invaders in this timeline, just not those like the Manchu who stifled tech development to maintain control. How likely is it with a three kingdoms POD for China to avoid the type of invaders who would cripple or inhibit China's even economic or tech development?

On that note was the Han or Qin Emperors significantly free of Central Asian ancestry? Was the ancestry of the Chinese and its emperors ever that clearly distinct from those in Central Asia?
Depends largely on what the conquest dynasty does.The Mongols were the ones that really stiffled technological progress with their caste system.Technological progress ground to a halt in the Ming Dynasty thanks to them inheriting the said caste system.

As for the Manchus,it was a combination of them not wanting gunpowder weapons to advance as well as the fact that they have inherited the stagnant Ming society.
 
I think this would definitely be the right forum for this. Is there any plausible way to prevent the Uprising of the Five Barbarians and Northern Wei? Perhaps a situation where the Barbarian tribes hold onto China for a very short period and are forced out or never get a foothold at all?

P.S. About the earlier point. Europe's royal families are mixed. Britain's royal family isn't totally British yet we don't say Britain was under a conquest dynasty. We don't say that the achievements of the British don't belong to the British or think less of them. Let's not forget that Queen Victoria, who presided over Britain's golden age was from the House of Hanover with German Paternal descent. Doesn't mean that Britain's golden age didn't reflect Britain or wasn't the work of the British. The British golden age despite this isn't actually a reflection of how effective the Germans are instead.

None of the royal families there are pure of any ethnicity. It's what happens when there's two nations of comparable stature are in close contact to each other. China having Central Asian emperors doesn't really mean anything so long as they have at least one Han Chinese parent and accept the culture. There's monarchs in Europe that have had less than 50% ancestry of the country they are ruling and I think at least one had trouble speaking the language of the nation he ruled.

@darthfanta Li Shimin had a Han father and Khan of the Turkic peoples was a title given to him out of respect rather than him being the Khan and taking over. There's more to the golden age than Buddhist monks. Trade is between two different peoples, Chinese merchants travelled abroad and Sodiana came to China. The Han Chinese as the majority tilled the fields, ran most of the businesses, created most of those trade products, generated the wealth, created the Tang's inventions as well as mostly manned and commanded those armies of the Tang. The Emperors also didn't operate in a bubble. Those were mostly Han Chinese giving counsel to him (helping him to turn the tribes of Central Asia into vassals) and mostly Han Chinese governors and ministers who ran the country and made it so prosperous. Those are also Han that kept marrying into the House of Li for successive generations.

Same goes for Britain. The Brits may have had German rulers but as the majority they did most of the work and guided the royal family. Although royalty of a Germanic House had ruled Britain since 1714 (a huge chunk of Britain's golden age, before that the ruling house was Dutch) by the 1900's started Britain had a massive colonial Empire and Germany had a much smaller one. In the 1900's the Dutch, although powerful weren't as powerful as Britain.
 
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I think this would definitely be the right forum for this. Is there any plausible way to prevent the Uprising of the Five Barbarians and Northern Wei? Perhaps a situation where the Barbarian tribes hold onto China for a very short period and are forced out or never get a foothold at all?
The easy answer is that the second Jin emperor wasn’t an imbecile at all. The first emperor had plenty of sons,but went to great lengths to ensure that his first wife’s eldest son inherited the throne.If someone that’s not an imbecile isn’t on the,even if he’s not competent,the Jin Dynasty would have never been weakened by civil war to the point where the Five barbarians succeed in conquering territories north of the Huai River.

After the Five Barbarian uprising broke out,there were actually five occasions where the Jin Dynasty could have pushed out the barbarians.

The first was under the general Zu Ti. This guy was the governor of mostly deserted provinces in central China.With almost no resources given to him by the the Eastern Jin government save those from the province he controlled,he was able to reconquer China south of the Yellow River.He died of despair soon after the Jin government stripped him of his authority after they were afraid that he would reconquer the north and become too powerful for them to control.Dude was basically Yue Fei without the getting executed part.Assuming that the Eastern Jin government gave him resources and troops,he probably would have been able to expel the barbarians.

Second opportunity came with the general Huan Wen,who was also the brother in law of the Jin emperor.He had mixed successes against the barbarians to the north,at one point recovering Luoyang and had his army just outside Chang’an. His sole desire in campaigning against the barbarians was to accumulate enough prestige so that he could usurp the throne.As a result,his leadership of the army was over-cautious and did not attempt to be more bold in battles that could destroy the barbarians but perhaps also risk destroy his own army(in order to avoid losing his army and the means of usurping the throne). As a result of infighting with noble families who did not want him to usurp the throne,his northern expeditions were also heavily hampered.Due to over-caution and lack of widespread support in the country,his expeditions also failed.

The third chance came with the famous Xie Clan. Under the Jin Chancellor Xie An,the Xie clan built an elite semi-private army known as the Beifu army that consists largely of refugees from the north.The north unified by Former Qin tried to invade the Eastern Jin Dynasty with an army that supposedly numbered over 800,000(I’m skeptical about the number),only to be defeated by the 80,000 strong Beifu army under the command of Xie An’s nephew Xie Xuan. No longer fearful of the Former Qin’s strength,various barbarian tribes to the north rebelled and Former Qin rapidly collapsed.Taking advantage of this,Xie Xuan and the Beifu army recovered the entirety of China south of the Yellow River. Due to fears of the Xie Clan becoming too powerful and perhaps try to usurp the throne like Huan Wen,the Xie clan was barred from attempting to recover the rest of China. Xie Xuan and the army were later recalled and the north was once again lost to the barbarians.Xie Xuan also died a few years after.

The last attempt came from a Beifu army officer named Liu Yu,who was interestingly enough a descendant of Liu Bang’s younger brother (Liu Bang is the founder of the Han Dynasty) . He rose to power after rallying the Beifu army to defeat Huan Xuan(Huan Wen’s son) after the latter usurped the throne from the Jin emperors.He acclaimed supreme power in the south by restoring the Jin Dynasty,only to try and usurp the throne just like Huan Wen. Due to his humble origins(his family had long since fallen onto obscurity despite his ancesral links to the Han Dynasty),he had to campaign to the north to garner prestige.He managed to recover the entirety of the central plains and even recover Guanzhong(where Chang’an’s located).He even succeeded in defeating Northern Wei despite heavily outnumbered.Just when he is poised to unite China however,his right hand man in the Jin Court(who was controlling the government for him) died suddenly.This forced him to cancel the campaign to finish off the remaining barbarian states and return to Nanjing to maintain control over the government.The army units he left in Guanzong fought against each other without his leadership and the barbarians were able to take advantage of this and wipe out the army he left in Guanzhong.Without this veteran army,he was no longer able to unite China,and he spent his few remaining years finishing the process of usurping the throne to established the Song Dynasty.Assuming that his right hand man didn’t die in poor timing or that Liu Yu came to power earlier,he could have probably fully pushed the barbarians out.

@darthfanta Li Shimin had a Han father and Khan of the Turkic peoples was a title given to him out of respect rather than him being the Khan and taking over. There's more to the golden age than Buddhist monks. Trade is between two different peoples, Chinese merchants travelled abroad and Sodiana came to China. The Han Chinese as the majority tilled the fields, ran most of the businesses, created most of those trade products, generated the wealth, created the Tang's inventions as well as mostly manned and commanded those armies of the Tang. The Emperors also didn't operate in a bubble. Those were mostly Han Chinese giving counsel to him (helping him to turn the tribes of Central Asia into vassals) and mostly Han Chinese governors and ministers who ran the country and made it so prosperous. Those are also Han that kept marrying into the House of Li for successive generations.

Same goes for Britain. The Brits may have had German rulers but as the majority they did most of the work and guided the royal family. Although royalty of a Germanic House had ruled Britain since 1714 (a huge chunk of Britain's golden age, before that the ruling house was Dutch) by the 1900's started Britain had a massive colonial Empire and Germany had a much smaller one. In the 1900's the Dutch, although powerful weren't as powerful as Britain.
Foreign rulers in China were in the same breed as William the Conqueror and Guthrum rather than someone like William of Orange or Victoria,who were welcomed into the country by popular representative or actually came to power within the system.The latter kind of monarchs respected the traditions and laws of the land.The former don't. The former type seize the property of the natives and treat them like slaves.

As for Li Shimin, he got the Khagan title after beating the hell out of the Turks.Whether his family is Han or not is actually quite shady,and unless you are downtrodden, most of the respectable familities don't really want to marry a member of the House of Li,especially the princesses due to the promiscuous nature of the Tang Imperial family.The princesses often cuckold their husbands and the latter can do nothing about it while being a laughingstock.
 
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I think this would definitely be the right forum for this. Is there any plausible way to prevent the Uprising of the Five Barbarians and Northern Wei?
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Probably Not.

Late Han to Early Tang is era of Great Families.
OTL Rebellion of Eight Prince and all scenario @darthfanta mentioned above, China underperform because internal chaos, Great Families with their private Buqu armies is so powerful that coup and rebellion is normal.

Northern Wei, Sui and Tang use Equal Field System and Fubing militia system to stop danger from Great Families.

There are probably other reason we don't know, its rather strange that at Late Tang and Song, rich families didn't cause problem and utterly failed even in dealing with jiedushi armies and rebel like Huang Chao, while Late Han Great Families managed to defeat border general like Dong Zhuo and defeated Yellow Turban rebel.

@darthfanta probably know more about Buqu and Fubing detail.
 
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Probably Not.

Late Han to Early Tang is era of Great Families.
OTL Rebellion of Eight Prince and all scenario @darthfanta mentioned above, China underperform because internal chaos, Great Families with their private Buqu armies is so powerful that coup and rebellion is normal.

Northern Wei, Sui and Tang use Equal Field System and Fubing militia system to stop danger from Great Families.

There are probably other reason we don't know, its rather strange that at Late Tang and Song, rich families didn't cause problem and utterly failed even in dealing with jiedushi armies and rebel like Huang Chao, while Late Han Great Families managed to defeat border general like Dong Zhuo and defeated Yellow Turban rebel.

@darthfanta probably know more about Buqu and Fubing detail.
That's because the Tang Dynasty managed to tame the nobility by building Chang'an into the Chinese version of Versailles. It was such a glamorous place that the aristocracy spent most of their energy trying to stay in Chang'an rather than stay in their ancestral homes to build up power locally.Appointments outside of the capital were considered a demotion by a lot of nobles,even if it technically increases their official rank.All of this meant that newer families built up power in the provinces at the expense of the old nobility.The rise of powerful military governors didn't help with this,given that a lot of these warlords rose from the ranks as opposed to being a part of the existing nobility.That is not to say that the nobility couldn't become warlords though. A lot of the nobility did become military governors,but in general they were much 'civilized and tame' compared to the Hebei three.These noble military governors never amassed the power to directly threaten the central government the way the rank and file military governors did.

Huang Chao and Zhu Wen destroyed the nobility at the end of the Tang Dynasty by slaughtering noble officials,burning their family trees and then seizing their lands. After this trauma,there's no way to prove who was noble or not,given the remaining nobility were scattered and no longer had family trees to prove their ancestry. They no longer had the wealth to eclipse newer families in influence either. The subsequent Song Dynasty simply just wouldn't tolerate semi private armies.
 
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@darthfanta that seems very strange. So many opportunities yet it seems misfortune steals victory away. Seems the even after Jin's in collapse China at least had the raw power to push the northern tribes away. The Three Kingdom's was one of the most destructive conflicts in Chinese History yet they didn't take over China then. That would seem to indicate that a fall for any significant time is unlikely but I'm curious. So many episodes of misfortune strung together, several promising attempts that failed for Jin and later the rise of Later Zhou being stifled by Song. Was China simply just having a bad roll of the dice or was there some kind of underlying cause?

Was Later Zhou in the five dynasties period about to win against the Liao or were they too headed for defeat at their hands?
 
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@darthfanta that seems very strange. So many opportunities yet it seems misfortune steals victory away. Seems the even after Jin's in collapse China at least had the raw power to push the northern tribes away. The Three Kingdom's was one of the most destructive conflicts in Chinese History yet they didn't take over China then. That would seem to indicate that a fall for any significant time is unlikely but I'm curious. So many episodes of misfortune strung together, several promising attempts that failed for Jin and later the rise of Later Zhou being stifled by Song. Was China simply just having a bad roll of the dice or was there some kind of underlying cause?

Was Later Zhou in the five dynasties period about to win against the Liao or were they too headed for defeat at their hands?
All of them with the exception of the last failed because of a lack of political will.The Eastern Jin dynasty was controlled by a series of emperor who were all short lived and a number of them even mentally disabled.The government was entirely under the hands of ministers from powerful families.A family would control the government for an x number of years before being ousted by another one.Nobody held absolute authority,and the rest of the nobility intended that to be so,given they wanted to rule their estates as independent domains and control the government themselves.Government authority was understandably weak and the imperial government was more of a confederacy rather than the administration of a centralized empire.Even though they lost land from the barbarians,much the nobles never bothered to recover their lands because they could seize land from the southern landowners instead.Attempts to recover lands to the north became a rallying cry for ambitious men who wanted to gain power,whether they want to have the prestige to strengthen their hold over the imperial government or to usurp the throne themselves.The vast majority of nobles would go to great lengths to sabotage the expeditions and not contribute to the campaigns.The imperial family would ally with these nobles to prevent a challenger to the throne from getting too powerful.
 
That's because the Tang Dynasty managed to tame the nobility by building Chang'an into the Chinese version of Versailles. It was such a glamorous place that the aristocracy spent most of their energy trying to stay in Chang'an rather than stay in their ancestral homes to build up power locally.Appointments outside of the capital were considered a demotion by a lot of nobles,even if it technically increases their official rank.All of this meant that newer families built up power in the provinces at the expense of the old nobility.The rise of powerful military governors didn't help with this,given that a lot of these warlords rose from the ranks as opposed to being a part of the existing nobility.That is not to say that the nobility couldn't become warlords though. A lot of the nobility did become military governors,but in general they were much 'civilized and tame' compared to the Hebei three.These noble military governors never amassed the power to directly threaten the central government the way the rank and file military governors did.

Huang Chao and Zhu Wen destroyed the nobility at the end of the Tang Dynasty by slaughtering noble officials,burning their family trees and then seizing their lands. After this trauma,there's no way to prove who was noble or not,given the remaining nobility were scattered and no longer had family trees to prove their ancestry. They no longer had the wealth to eclipse newer families in influence either. The subsequent Song Dynasty simply just wouldn't tolerate semi private armies.

I really like this point for so many reasons. Chang'an was an amazing city for the apparent level of planning, social utility, and gosh-dang handy luxuries. Tea houses, wine shops, trendy restaurants, organized stall markets with area based consumer focused competition, regularly paid and organized night watchmen, fire brigades, honey bucket (poo removal) brigades, and my personal favorite, organized catered parties at a rented pavillion on an island in a lake with regularly priced menus, music bands and dance troupes, I mean, come on, Chang'an had something for everyone, a Disneyland at the LAST millennium. What I really like about Darth Fanta's presentation is Darth Fanta going right to the heart of the appeal and saying all of that entertainment and organization was all done with a specific plan to wean away the children of local elites from any notion of overthrowing the existing order and seeking power away from the centralized bureaucracy by demonstrating the existence of a luxurious lifestyle for themselves alone, not their families as a whole, by surrendering themselves to the bureaucratic lifestyle and requirements of the capitol that PAID FOR the professional level entertainment business available ONLY in Chang'an a THOUSAND years ago.

The deliberateness of it. That's what's shocking. Like bulldozing a couple dozen towns outside of Washington D.C. and putting in Las Vegas/Disney type entertainment for POLITICAL purposes. But who would put gambler/entertainment type thinking at the top of the heap in 21st Century America? (Just sayin'. Please visit my thread in Future History: "Dream Big or Stay Home. Yes. MARS." I have a major update coming this weekend and I won't be happy until I get a hundred votes for or against the poll I've offered.)
 

Plebian

Banned
China has had warring states periods before the Uprising of the Five Barbarians, its kind of built into the fabric of early China. The Xiongu confederacy were present at the fall of the Qin and the Three Kingdoms (fall of Han). The central Asians were unified and crazy powerful then and China was divided and crippled by civil war. Usually prior to a civil war you see an Emperor completely under the control of someone in the court, such as the last emperor of Qin or Han. Developmentally disabled or no its no longer the Emperor making any decisions, its the person in control. This means it functionally makes little difference if the Emperor is disabled or not. If he can speak the puppet master's words, it's the same effect. Did high borne families wresting control of China away from the government cripple it? Yes. But that happened in previous dynasties too, whilst a powerful unified Central Asia was at the gates but they couldn't get a foothold. Corruption and infighting among the military occurred too with other dynasties. Must be something else on top of it that made Jin's collapse so bad.

Considering the Southern and Northern Dynasties period was followed by the brief Sui Dynasty, the Tang (run by a partially non-Chinese) then the dumpster fire that was Song I'm going to go with the Uprising of the Five Barbarians as the true end of Chinese Civilization. After that the Han Chinese wheezed along under foreign rule then bungled the Song Dynasty. Going to partially agree with Denv. You're not looking at several independent collapses. Ancient China got kicked hard in the nuts once and never came back.
 
China has had warring states periods before the Uprising of the Five Barbarians, its kind of built into the fabric of early China. The Xiongu confederacy were present at the fall of the Qin and the Three Kingdoms (fall of Han). The central Asians were unified and crazy powerful then and China was divided and crippled by civil war. Usually prior to a civil war you see an Emperor completely under the control of someone in the court, such as the last emperor of Qin or Han. Developmentally disabled or no its no longer the Emperor making any decisions, its the person in control. This means it functionally makes little difference if the Emperor is disabled or not. If he can speak the puppet master's words, it's the same effect. Did high borne families wresting control of China away from the government cripple it? Yes. But that happened in previous dynasties too, whilst a powerful unified Central Asia was at the gates but they couldn't get a foothold. Corruption and infighting among the military occurred too with other dynasties. Must be something else on top of it that made Jin's collapse so bad.
That is incorrect to be honest. The Xiongnu Confederacy was dead by the time the Three Kingdoms kicked in. The remaining Xiongnu became a subject nation of the Han Dynasty and by the time of Cao Wei,the remaining Xiongnu were further fragmented. The Xianbei Confederacy which replaced the Xiongnu Confederacy also fragmented during the Three Kingdom's period.Most of the barbarian tribes were actually splintered by the start of the Jin Dynasty,and existed as semi-independent tribes that lived within Jin borders. The problem however was that these tribes were not properly assimilated and had their own leaders. Cao Wei and the early Jin dynasty could easily dominate these tribes,but the total anarchy in the aftermath of Sima Yan's reign gave some of these barbarian leaders the chance to take over other tribes and become strong enough to challenge a divided and heavily weakened Jin Dynasty. The real problem behind the Jin Dynasty's inability to resist these barbarians was that no Chinese ruler held decisive leadership over their subjects,with many generals and governors having their own priorities and doing their own thing. This division gave the barbarians a chance to divide and conquer the Jin Dynasty.
Considering the Southern and Northern Dynasties period was followed by the brief Sui Dynasty, the Tang (run by a partially non-Chinese) then the dumpster fire that was Song I'm going to go with the Uprising of the Five Barbarians as the true end of Chinese Civilization. After that the Han Chinese wheezed along under foreign rule then bungled the Song Dynasty. Going to partially agree with Denv. You're not looking at several independent collapses. Ancient China got kicked hard in the nuts once and never came back.
Don't quite understand your point here.
 
@darthfanta could I have the link for resources describing the 4 times that China almost retook the North? Seems like fascinating reading.

How did you find this stuff? You seem to be pretty good at finding this info :eek:
 
@darthfanta could I have the link for resources describing the 4 times that China almost retook the North? Seems like fascinating reading.

How did you find this stuff? You seem to be pretty good at finding this info :eek:
Sources all in Chinese.Though wiki does give good info on this as well.
 
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