Butterfly away the Song Dynasty

It seems that by the time the Song Dynasty rises to power, the fate of China was no longer in the hands of the Chinese. For example Shimo Ming'an, a Khitian from the former Liao Dynasty set the events in motion that would result in the end of a Chinese ruled China. By weakening their military, those with a more powerful military decided its fate from far beyond its borders.

What would be the best way to butterfly away the Song Dynasty? Preferably by removing or changing an event that was quite unlikely but happened OTL anyway or perhaps by removing a betrayal.

Do you agree with my assessment? Is there any unlikely event or betrayal which removed could have left the Song Dynasty in a survivable position? They don't need to expand, just survive in a reasonably powerful position. Was a militarily weak dynasty inevitable after the debacle of Tang's collapse?
 
It seems that by the time the Song Dynasty rises to power, the fate of China was no longer in the hands of the Chinese. For example Shimo Ming'an, a Khitian from the former Liao Dynasty set the events in motion that would result in the end of a Chinese ruled China. By weakening their military, those with a more powerful military decided its fate from far beyond its borders.

.... Do you agree with my assessment?
Was a militarily weak dynasty inevitable after the debacle of Tang's collapse?

I Disagree with this premise.

1) China ALWAYS have military disadvantage against Steppe. Han paying Xiongnu, Wu Hu invasion, An Lu Shan and Turkic invasion in Late Tang, Song paying Khitan and Tanguts and Manchu.

Lucky Incidence (division in Steppe, United China, Strong Emperor, loyal non-chinese cavalry) could reverse it for some time, but its temporary aberration.

and by some standard, early Sui and Tang is non-Chinese, nobles in Wei River always intermarry with nomadic tribesmen.

2) Song is not that weak. It holds Mongols for 25 years in Siege of Xiangyang. There are difference between offensive armies (which need horses and cavalryman) and defensive armies. Song army, for all bureaucratization and inefficiencies still performed reasonable well, especially south of Huai river. Majority of Song defeats is foolish ambitious offensive to territory held by Liao and Tanguts. Later Song most defeats also performed mostly in offensive North of Huai river.

I think Song obsession with Lost Prefecture, and later attempt to recapture Yellow River is misguided folly.

What would be the best way to butterfly away the Song Dynasty? Preferably by removing or changing an event that was quite unlikely but happened OTL anyway or perhaps by removing a betrayal.

Since Song founder is general, have him killed or dismissed should have easy.

Is there any unlikely event or betrayal which removed could have left the Song Dynasty in a survivable position? They don't need to expand, just survive in a reasonably powerful position.

Song very nearly survive Mongol assault. its survive against Khitan and Jin. its position is already survivable.

defeated by Mongols is not prove of any military weakness, many country also defeated by Mongols.
 
When Jin invaded Song prior to the first siege of Bianjing the generals between the Jin positions and the capital surrendered without much resistance. I don't know if it's just me but that seems highly suspicious. Kind of like how Jin's forces suffered an uncontrolled rout after Shimo's Ming'an's betrayal and the loss at Badger Mouth but was previously able to regroup in a strong position after its last defeats. I suspect very strongly that there's a traitor in there somewhere but after doing research I can't figure out exactly who.

Cities are a defensive position which can hold out for a prolonged period, Jin was relatively weak against walled cities and reinforcements were on the way. One does not just surrender such a position. Perhaps if that first unknown general had held fast the others would have also? Was a traitor opening gates for the Jin? Several generals were angry with the government after land reforms so that might possibly be the motive.

I'm really curious about this and was wondering what the community knew or thought about it? Would one general holding out have just resulted in the others surrendering after Jin goes around him? Would he have inspired others to hold out too? Does the government redistributing some of their wealth to the poor likely make a person so likely to be treasonous?

P.S. This gets you butterflies before the fourth crusade so now you get a vastly stronger Byzantine Empire (the other threads seem to suggest that it's also part the scenario)
 
@kholieken, interesting opinion but I think the Song was far weaker than previous Dynasties. Unusually so. Others may have lost against the Mongols but they had not encountered the Mongols before. China had existed beside them and others from central Asia for thousands of years, at times in a large confederation existed like the Xiongnu but China was never overrun in its entirety even if it might have lost portions of it's periphery. Song might have lasted for decades but another dynasty, could have potentially have done even better.

Those are good ideas to get rid of Song's founder but what was the closest he or his predecessors came to meeting their end? Did he ever make it through a Hail Mary situation where it was incredible he survived at all? Could be an interesting angle to just have that situation go the more probable route, possibly portraying OTL as the more wacky timeline.

On another note any other ideas for traitors that doomed the already weak Song? If we go the saving the Song route what would be the single best POD for saving Northern Song?
 
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I think Mongols benefit enormously from technology developed by Liao and Jin (political, logistical, mil organization and siege). Nomads from Xiong nu to Manchu Qing is not identical, they keep getting better.

And several other nomads do success in conquering entire North China in entirety. Before Song, China in South is more sparsely populated, more forested and marshy, and poorer. pre-Mongols might think it not worth conquering. even Chinese complain about Malaria and Tribesmen.

another factor should be in consideration, Han to Tang history record existence if Great Family who dominated politic and military, while late Tang had strong military jiedushi. It might be impossible to develop strong military without hereditary military man. And desertification in Wei River weaken military dynasty in that area.

eh, I consider the 'Traitors' is actually correct one and Yue Fei dangerous warmongers. I think idea Song military weakness because traitors is mostly nationalistic propaganda.

as for Northern POD, allying with Jin ?
 
This is easy.Just have Guo Rong(the second emperor of the later Zhou Dynasty)live ten to twenty years longer.The first emperor of the Song Dynasty was essentially just a slightly above average general without ever any spectacular military talent.If Guo Rong,who was a fairly successful soldier-emperor lived much longer(he died in his thirties IOTL),the army would not have proclaimed another man emperor.Guo Rong was essentially not only a highly accomplished general who was not only defeat other Chinese states,but actually reconquer land from the Khitans to the north.He was also an excellent administrator.
@kholieken, interesting opinion but I think the Song was far weaker than previous Dynasties. Unusually so. Others may have lost against the Mongols but they had not encountered the Mongols before. China had existed beside them and others from central Asia for thousands of years, at times in a large confederation existed like the Xiongnu but China was never overrun in its entirety even if it might have lost portions of it's periphery. Song might have lasted for decades but another dynasty, could have potentially have done even better.

Those are good ideas to get rid of Song's founder but what was the closest he or his predecessors came to meeting their end? Did he ever make it through a Hail Mary situation where it was incredible he survived at all? Could be an interesting angle to just have that situation go the more probable route, possibly portraying OTL as the more wacky timeline.

On another note any other ideas for traitors that doomed the already weak Song? If we go the saving the Song route what would be the single best POD for saving Northern Song?
I think the problem with the Song Dynasty was that the first two emperors,especially the second one,were never really that talented in military affairs.This is critically important compared to other dynasties because the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period was essentially the Chinese version of the Crisis of the Third Century.Unless you are the emperor campaigning in person,the entire country’s resources can never be fully mobilized under a particular general without the fear that this general might usurp the throne.

To their credit though,the enemies they faced were a step up from the Xiongnu—the Khitans and the Tanguts were no longer purely nomads,but lived a mixed sedentary/nomadic lifestyle.Due to the fact that they have a lot of Chinese subjects living within their borders,they were able to develop military equipment that were on par to that of the Song forces.
 
I think Mongols benefit enormously from technology developed by Liao and Jin (political, logistical, mil organization and siege). Nomads from Xiong nu to Manchu Qing is not identical, they keep getting better.

And several other nomads do success in conquering entire North China in entirety. Before Song, China in South is more sparsely populated, more forested and marshy, and poorer. pre-Mongols might think it not worth conquering. even Chinese complain about Malaria and Tribesmen.

another factor should be in consideration, Han to Tang history record existence if Great Family who dominated politic and military, while late Tang had strong military jiedushi. It might be impossible to develop strong military without hereditary military man. And desertification in Wei River weaken military dynasty in that area.

eh, I consider the 'Traitors' is actually correct one and Yue Fei dangerous warmongers. I think idea Song military weakness because traitors is mostly nationalistic propaganda.

as for Northern POD, allying with Jin ?
The problem with the Song Dynasty comes in many folds.The more I read about it the less I am impressed.It’s government revenue may look impressive,but truth was that the government was taxing the people much harder than most other dynasties.Apart from the capital itself,government administrations in the provinces were deliberately underfunded[1]-—which led to underdevelopment of the provinces.This is largely due to a bloated government administration and army that the Song government never really needed.In an attempt to secure the loyalty of officials, most of the middle to senior ranking government officials are given permission to recommend relatives for service.While most of these relatives are never able to achieve high office due to the fact that they did not enter government service through the imperial examination,this led to increasing numbers of lower ranking government offices being created—with most of these bureaucrats receiving large salaries without ever having to do any real work.Added to the problem is the policy that whenever there’s a natural disaster,the government would hire all of the displaced males as soldiers.This is an attempt to prevent peasant uprisings,which worked well,but led to increasing numbers of soldiers being employed without actually having the funding to train all of them.This meant that the quality of the army as a whole declined due to not having sufficient amount of money both to pay the troops as well as to train and equip them[2].All of this meant that while the Song Dynasty theoretically had an army of over a million troops,few of those troops were actually trained for battle—with most of the army being geared towards fighting peasant uprisings rather than foreign invaders.Due to the highly bloated civil service and army,the government consistently faced budgetary crisis and deficits despite having one of the largest revenue in Chinese history.

1.This is to prevent regional warlords from developing.
2.This is really one of the many problems with the army.
 
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@darthfanta how about this? Have the Song properly consider Zhang Jue's defection. Song has made many mistakes in its time, as does any civilization. What was certainly unusual is Song in that particular era acting so uncharacteristically rashly and with so little follow through. When they made a mistake they often followed through bullheadedly and then relented when something went horribly wrong. The fact that they killed Zhang Jue soon after, even before the Liao did anything at all means that they didn't really think the move through and not accepting him represents their true, thought through opinion.

Let me repeat that. The nation made a decision, one that would jeopardize their entire nation and after they had everything they wanted for so long (those 16 prefectures) so in haste that they almost immediately regretted it and reversed the decision. That is an unlikely quirk of fate indeed, almost unprecedented. If they think it over beforehand before awarding him titles then fortify the mountains north of China then the Northern Song becomes defensible again. The Liao will be back but in a couple of decades after Song has finished fortifying the northern Great Wall, newly back under their control.

They would also have time to leverage the horses available in North China and the vast coal reserves there.
 
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@darthfanta how about this? Have the Song properly consider Zhang Jue's defection. Song has made many mistakes in its time, as does any civilization. What was certainly unusual is Song in that particular era acting so uncharacteristically rashly and with so little follow through. When they made a mistake they often followed through bullheadedly and then relented when something went horribly wrong. The fact that they killed Zhang Jue soon after, even before the Liao did anything at all means that they didn't really think the move through and not accepting him represents their true, thought through opinion.

Let me repeat that. The nation made a decision, one that would jeopardize their entire nation and after they had everything they wanted for so long (those 16 prefectures) so in haste that they almost immediately regretted it and reversed the decision. That is an unlikely quirk of fate indeed, almost unprecedented. If they think it over beforehand before awarding him titles then fortify the mountains north of China then the Northern Song becomes defensible again. The Liao will be back but in a couple of decades after Song has finished fortifying the northern Great Wall, newly back under their control.

They would also have time to leverage the horses available in North China and the vast coal reserves there.
Bit too late. The Jurchens never intended to keep any promises made to the Song Court.The Sixteen Prefectures the Song Dynasty court got was next to useless since the Jurchens deliberately kept control of key mountain passes which separated the Sixteen Prefectures from the Manchuria instead of returning them.They also evacuated the Sixteen prefectures’ population to Manchuria once they captured it from the Khitans,meaning the Song Dynasty essentially had to buy at high price an empty province devoid of its’ people.Due to the fact that the population’s large gone,and that key mountain passes were in the hands of the Jurchens,the Jurchens could have easily invaded the Song Dynasty.All they needed was an excuse.

The fact that the Song Dynasty killed Zhang Jue upon request by the Jurchens yet the latter still used Zhang Jue’s defection as an excuse to invade the Song Dynasty shows that the Jurchens never really intended to leave the Song Dynasty alone.

Jurchen decision to invade the Song Dynasty probably lies with the fact that the Song Dynasty demonstrated to everyone earlier that their armies were so weak that they can be destroyed even by the collapsing Liao Dynasty(the Song Dynasty mobilized a large force intending to capture the Sixteen Prefectures in coordination with the Jurchens,but were easily defeated by the much weakened Liao garrison of the sixteen prefectures).

As for horses,the claim that the Song Dynasty couldn’t get horses because all of the horse grazing grounds are gone was complete horse shit. The truth is that even if they managed to conquer Western Xia and reclaim the Sixteen Prefectures,they still wouldn’t have successfully raised horses on their own.They would have converted all of the land in these regions into farmland. This is no less demonstrated by the fact that the first emperor of the Song Dynasty established studd farms in Henan with the intent of raising war horses,but after his death,all of these lands were converted into farmland for officials and nobles.
 
Thanks for all the suggestions everyone.

@kholieken, didn't Jin appear after the Northern Song was destroyed?

@darthfanta, the Guo Rong suggestion might work :) How about Emperor Taizu of Song being killed or crippled when his head hits that gate in his youth?

Perhaps the man who would become Emperor Taizu of Song just doesn't decide to betray Later Liang at Chen Bridge and instead fights the Northern Han and Liao as he was ordered to? Turning around may very well have started a civil war and left the country open on the eve of what he believed was an invasion. Would it be too tempting to just turn around and take over the country? How would that campaign against Liao and Northern Han have worked out?

Would Later Liang get obliterated, paving the way for a Southern Han or Tang reunification of China? How did Song, such a militarily weak state manage to reunify China anyway?

The Song may have had their impressive traits but I'm rather curious if they the Swan Song of Chinese civilization which actually died with the Tang due to the Jiedushi?
 
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RousseauX

Donor
I Disagree with this premise.

1) China ALWAYS have military disadvantage against Steppe. Han paying Xiongnu, Wu Hu invasion, An Lu Shan and Turkic invasion in Late Tang, Song paying Khitan and Tanguts and Manchu.
the manchus were not a steppe people though, they had gunpowder based infantry armies mirroring the Chinese armies by the 1600s
 
Thanks for all the suggestions everyone.

@kholieken, didn't Jin appear after the Northern Song was destroyed?

@darthfanta, the Guo Rong suggestion might work :) How about Emperor Taizu of Song being killed or crippled when his head hits that gate in his youth?

Perhaps the man who would become Emperor Taizu of Song just doesn't decide to betray Later Liang at Chen Bridge and instead fights the Northern Han and Liao as he was ordered to? Turning around may very well have started a civil war and left the country open on the eve of what he believed was an invasion. Would it be too tempting to just turn around and take over the country? How would that campaign against Liao and Northern Han have worked out?

Would Later Liang get obliterated, paving the way for a Southern Han or Tang reunification of China? How did Song, such a militarily weak state manage to reunify China anyway?

The Song may have had their impressive traits but I'm rather curious if they the Swan Song of Chinese civilization which actually died with the Tang due to the Jiedushi?
A pov wth Guo Rong surviving is better.Since the child emperor who survives him might be incompetent.

The first Song enperor won’t go for the throne as long as a capable emperor is at the helm.Arguably,the whole affair with the Chen bridge was planned and orchestrated by Zhao Kuangyin himself.Everything was just too coincidental and that the he had the support of Imperial Guards,the most powerful military force in the country.The only military force that could oppose him was the Tianxiong army located in the Hebei region,whose commander was the empress dowager’s own father,the problem however was that the empress dowager’s younger sister was married to Zhao Kuangyin’s younger brother(who later became Emperor Taizong),so it made no difference to the commander of the Tianxiong army in regards to who was in power,so he just let the coup take peace unopposed.

And by the way,the regime Zhao Kuangyin took over from was the Later Zhou,not the later Liang.The Song managed to take control of the rest of China due to the fact that the other regimes were even weaker(in terms of population, economics and the martial tradition) and largely ruled by incompetent rulers by the time Zhao Kuangyin came to power.For example, Southern Tang,the most powerful state other than the dynasties that controlled the Central Plains was already badly crippled by the campaigns of Guo Rong and forced into acknowledging the Later-Zhou as its’ overlord.Finally,the army the Song Dynasty inherited from Later Zhou was actually pretty good—it’s just that mismanagement by Song rulers led to its’ later decline.

problem with the Chinese society of the time was less that of the Jiedushi,but that of unruly soldiers.The army of the time was basically like the army of the Roman Empire during the Crisis of the Third Century.They were unruly,ill disciplined and often murdered the commander whom they disagreed with.

It wasn’t uncommon for jiedushis to be killed and replaced through mutiny.To ensure that they stay in power,jiedushis often had to tax the population under their control highly in order to dish out lucrative pay and privileges to the soldiers under their command.Sometimes,their men force them to usurp the throne so that they can gain greater wealth,titles and privileges.

Few jiedushis were true masters of their own turf.The situation was so bad that a number of Jiedushis don’t really want to be jiedushis and actually wanted to submit to Imperial authority due to the risk of the profession(being killed by their soldiers in a mutiny).

Due to the fact that the soldiers under their command benefitted from the power structure of the commander having to stay in their grace in order to stay alive however,they often forced their commander to remain a warlord autonomous from the government.

One of the ways a Jiedushi can stay in power,apart from indulging their men, was to have the blessing and support of the Imperial government to legitimize his rule,which meant that these jiedushis have to walk a thin line between supporting the government and the interests of his own troops.

Even if the central government can eradicate a jiedushi,the central army sent to conquer that particular circuit will often attempt to force the central government to make their commander the new jiedushi of the circuit,so the cycle just perpetuates.The government tried to install bureaucrat-generals as jiedushi under the assumption that scholar-generals will be better behaved,but a good number of these scholar-generals turned out to be warlords all the same either due to ambition or actually being forced by their men to become so.

The result was that the Jiedushis were not always bad to the government and that the government might not necessarily want to eradicate them due to the fear that a worse jiedushi(one that’s genuinely capable and disloyal) might pop up.

I don’t think that the Song Dynasty was destined to be the Swan Song of Chinese civilization,but the thing is that while they were able to eradicate the problem of unruly soldiers,they could have done better.
 
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the manchus were not a steppe people though, they had gunpowder based infantry armies mirroring the Chinese armies by the 1600s
Those gunpowder infantry armies were just defectors.They made very little attempts to advance and promote the craft on their own.Nonetheless,I agree with your statement that they were not steppe nomads.Even before becoming urbanized due to the conquest of Chinese cities,many of them were hunter-gatherers who fished,hunted and gathered food rather than make a living through pastoral activities.
 

RousseauX

Donor
Those gunpowder infantry armies were just defectors.They made very little attempts to advance and promote the craft on their own.Nonetheless,I agree with your statement that they were not steppe nomads.Even before becoming urbanized due to the conquest of Chinese cities,many of them were hunter-gatherers who fished,hunted and gathered food rather than make a living through pastoral activities.
it depends on the time period you are talking about

In the late 1500s and early 1600s the Manchus got really rich through the ginseng trade with China, something like 25% of all silver the Chinese got from the Europeans through their trade surplus went to the Manchus, this massive amount of silver ended up being used by the Manchus to buy Portuguese cannons and muskets and state building.

a couple of decades before the invasion of China in the 1640s the Manchus had already created a mirror of the Chinese government complete with imperial ministries in Manchuria, they were very much a Chinese style state with a early modern gunpowder based army by the time they took Beijing.
 
it depends on the time period you are talking about

In the late 1500s and early 1600s the Manchus got really rich through the ginseng trade with China, something like 25% of all silver the Chinese got from the Europeans through their trade surplus went to the Manchus, this massive amount of silver ended up being used by the Manchus to buy Portuguese cannons and muskets and state building.

a couple of decades before the invasion of China in the 1640s the Manchus had already created a mirror of the Chinese government complete with imperial ministries in Manchuria, they were very much a Chinese style state with a early modern gunpowder based army by the time they took Beijing.
They got most of their gunpowder weapons through the defection of Chinese forces rather than buying them.This is why prior to the defection of Ming units from the Dongjiang army during the late 1620s,they failed to penetrate Ming defense lines in the Liaoxi corridor.Even then,most of the gunpowder weapons were used in sieges rather than field battles.They never really relied on gunpowder weapons as much as the Ming ever did.
 
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This is easy.Just have Guo Rong(the second emperor of the later Zhou Dynasty)live ten to twenty years longer. If Guo Rong, who was a fairly successful soldier-emperor lived much longer(he died in his thirties IOTL), the army would not have proclaimed another man emperor. Guo Rong was essentially not only a highly accomplished general who was not only defeat other Chinese states, but actually reconquer land from the Khitans to the north.He was also an excellent administrator.
In the following OTLs,
1) Guo Rong unified the north whereas Jiedushi remnants from the Southern Tang held on. A reappearance of the late Northern and Souther Dynasties could be possible in which Later Zhou governed similary to Northern Zhou without Sizhuan area. The remaining Jiedushi was unified similar to Chen dynasty remained in the South, similar to Guiyi regime centered in Dunhuang.
2) Given more education and chances, Guo Rong's heir apparent Chai Zongxun could unify the nation, much like the Sui Dynasty's unification effort.
3) Given the case of Shu Han during the Three Kingdoms that Liu Chen the Prince of Beidi was adamant against surrender, a grandson of Guo Rong could act similarly to Liu Chen wielding political power.
4) Given the corrupted court of Southern Han, Vietnam political influence could come north.
 
In the following OTLs,
1) Guo Rong unified the north whereas Jiedushi remnants from the Southern Tang held on. A reappearance of the late Northern and Souther Dynasties could be possible in which Later Zhou governed similary to Northern Zhou without Sizhuan area. The remaining Jiedushi was unified similar to Chen dynasty remained in the South, similar to Guiyi regime centered in Dunhuang.
2) Given more education and chances, Guo Rong's heir apparent Chai Zongxun could unify the nation, much like the Sui Dynasty's unification effort.
3) Given the case of Shu Han during the Three Kingdoms that Liu Chen the Prince of Beidi was adamant against surrender, a grandson of Guo Rong could act similarly to Liu Chen wielding political power.
4) Given the corrupted court of Southern Han, Vietnam political influence could come north.
Another possible pov is to have Guo Rong’s second wife survive the campaign against Southern Tang and become regent.She died of while accompanying her husband in the campaign against the Southern Tang when Guo Rong campaigned in person.She reportedly died due to not being used to the conditions of the south(e.g something like malaria).Unlike her young sister whom Guo Rong later married,she was known to be wise,politically savvy and actually popular with the troops.
 
Got another one for you guys. Seems that the loss of North China makes matters difficult even if you get rid of Song. If you want a traitor to remove from history it helps to get someone more proximal to that event. Try Lu Shunmi. I'm not sure but it sounds like he may be an ethnic Han Chinese who should be strongly motivated to fight against the "Northern Barbarians" in control of the state of Later Tang. Instead he betrayed his Han Chinese nation in favor of one ruled by ethnic Turks, telling them where a surprise attack could succeed, resulting in a loss for Later Liang. Was how bad a blow was this? Did Later Liang really have a chance or does this just postpone Later Liang's fall?

I'm really going to have to ask the community about this but my guess is that since Later Liang at that stage seemed to correspond to the Later Zhou the Later Liang is in a strong position to reunify China. Especially since the Song Dynasty used what was Later Zhou as a base to reunify China. Also consider that Turk ruled Later Tang is about to implode in roughly a decade. OTL Later Liang seemed to collapse pretty fast after Lu Shunmi's betrayal. Was his betrayal really that bad or was Later Liang somehow much weaker than Later Zhou for some reason?
 
Got another one for you guys. Seems that the loss of North China makes matters difficult even if you get rid of Song. If you want a traitor to remove from history it helps to get someone more proximal to that event. Try Lu Shunmi. I'm not sure but it sounds like he may be an ethnic Han Chinese who should be strongly motivated to fight against the "Northern Barbarians" in control of the state of Later Tang. Instead he betrayed his Han Chinese nation in favor of one ruled by ethnic Turks, telling them where a surprise attack could succeed, resulting in a loss for Later Liang. Was how bad a blow was this? Did Later Liang really have a chance or does this just postpone Later Liang's fall?

I'm really going to have to ask the community about this but my guess is that since Later Liang at that stage seemed to correspond to the Later Zhou the Later Liang is in a strong position to reunify China. Especially since the Song Dynasty used what was Later Zhou as a base to reunify China. Also consider that Turk ruled Later Tang is about to implode in roughly a decade. OTL Later Liang seemed to collapse pretty fast after Lu Shunmi's betrayal. Was his betrayal really that bad or was Later Liang somehow much weaker than Later Zhou for some reason?
Those ethnic Turks were more or less fully sinicized.Therefore,there's no reason why they aren't considered Chinese. And no,Later Liang was not in a strong position to reunify China.That ship has long sailed once Zhu Wen died.Once Zhu Wen died,it lacked capable leadership and consistently lost battles against the forces of Jin/Later Tang. To become ascendant in the wars against Jin/Later Tang,it will need far capable leadership.Later Zhou was far stronger because it controlled the entirety of Guanzhong,not to mention a large part of Hebei.Traditionally,these two regions provide good soldiers.There's also the fact that Northern Han,unlike Jin, did not have control of regions such as Datong to the north,which traditionally produced warhorses for armies.
 
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@darthfanta, why was Later Liang so weak? What happened with Zhu Wen's death that affected them so deeply? I suppose in 923 Zhu Youqian would be in charge of Later Liang. Could they perhaps be a dead weight to prevent the Turkic ruled nations from invading the South? Later Liang was in a stalemate with Jin prior to that betrayal. Perhaps the weakened dynasty could simply sit there and keep absorbing attacks until one of three things happens.

1. A Han Chinese seizes control of the Jin (like happened OTL after its name change to Later Zhou).
2. One of the Southern Dynasties such as Southern Tang reunifies Southern China and then after a period of consolidation pushes northward into Later Liang then Jin. Southern Tang had a pretty good performance initially but failed because their conquests exhausted their resources to the extent they could not fend off the gigantic faction that was the Song Dynasty. Perhaps if the Song were replaced by the weaker Later Liang then they'd have breathing room after reaching that period of exhaustion. They could recover, then continue a second period of expansion into Southern Han, then Later Liang.
3. A combination of 1 and 2. The Han Chinese seize back control of the north. The South reunifies, then a unified Han Chinese North and South face off against each other until only one nation remains.
 
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