Butterfly Away Islam

At the time of Muhammad, Yemen was being governed by the Sassanid Persians. So, it is entirely possible to see at least some Arab tribes convert to Zoroastrianism. IOTL the Sassanid governor/general converted to Islam by invitation of Muhammad and his family was able to continue ruling Yemen.
 
At the time of Muhammad, Yemen was being governed by the Sassanid Persians. So, it is entirely possible to see at least some Arab tribes convert to Zoroastrianism. IOTL the Sassanid governor/general converted to Islam by invitation of Muhammad and his family was able to continue ruling Yemen.
Hmm...that would be an interesting prospect, indeed.
 
what would be the most plausible way to butterfly away Islam? ...Also, if Islam is butterflied away, what becomes the dominant religion in Arab lands and beyond?
Harry Turtledove wrote an AH collection of short stories a while back that addresses this very issue. It was published in book form under the title, "Agent of Byzantium".

The premise of the book, as you might surmise from the title, is that the Turkish conquest of 1453 never happened, because for undisclosed reasons (possibly because the Empire & the Orthodox religion penetrated deeper into Arabia than in OTL), Mohammed early in life was converted to Orthodoxy, became one of the holiest of the Greek Orthodox saints, & spent the rest of his life composing hymns to Jesus. Yeah-- literally.

Saint Mahmud, as I believe he was called, was the favorite saint of the protagonist of the series, whose name I do not recall. (Basil Argyros. That memory of mine. Just as I was posting this is came to me. I had to go back & edit it in.)

No jihad. No conquest of the Christian Middle East or North Africa. No Islamicization of the Turks, who become good Christians & a bulwark of the Empire against the Mongols. This enables the Byzantines to focus their efforts at regaining their hegemony in Europe, at which they do a middling good job.

Pretty nice world, as AH speculation goes.
 
In my opinion, one of the best ways for Islam to be butterflied away would be for the Copts to be more active as missionaries in Arabia. I wouldn't go so far as to claim that Arabia was outside of Alexandria's orbit. Although I'm not sure where I could locate the information, I had heard that Mohammed himself was said to have had extensive communications with a Coptic monk. If you have a charismatic Copt attempting to spread "the True Faith in the One Incarnate Nature of Christ" in Arabia before Mohammed has time to develop Islam, then it would certainly be butterflied away. Miaphysitism has the advantage of being a Christianity that the Arabs could feel obliged to "liberate" from the Melchites, so as long as a charismatic Arab takes over from the Copt, we could see something like OTL's Muslim conquests, but I imagine they would go much smoother in the non-Roman parts of the Byzantine Empire. Since the Arabs would be practicing Christianity, though, Persia might be harder to hold down if the elite there associate it too much with their traditional Roman enemies, especially since the difference between Miaphysitism and Imperial Christianity can seem (pardon the pun) a bit byzantine.
 
I like the idea of Arabs starting a sternly puritanical and militant sect of Christianity. If it is a stern kind of Monophysitism they could easily "liberate" *wink-wink* the Monophysites of the Levant and Egypt from the "Chalchedonian heretics".

Depends on what the Christian Arabs do.

Considering that people OTL originally thought of Islam as a Christian heresy, it might not look as different as it sounds.
Didn't a lot of folks at the time think it was an offshoot of those Christian sects that denied Christ's divinity (such as the Arians)?
 
Harry Turtledove wrote an AH collection of short stories a while back that addresses this very issue. It was published in book form under the title, "Agent of Byzantium".

The premise of the book, as you might surmise from the title, is that the Turkish conquest of 1453 never happened, because for undisclosed reasons (possibly because the Empire & the Orthodox religion penetrated deeper into Arabia than in OTL), Mohammed early in life was converted to Orthodoxy, became one of the holiest of the Greek Orthodox saints, & spent the rest of his life composing hymns to Jesus. Yeah-- literally.

Saint Mahmud, as I believe he was called, was the favorite saint of the protagonist of the series, whose name I do not recall. (Basil Argyros. That memory of mine. Just as I was posting this is came to me. I had to go back & edit it in.)

No jihad. No conquest of the Christian Middle East or North Africa. No Islamicization of the Turks, who become good Christians & a bulwark of the Empire against the Mongols. This enables the Byzantines to focus their efforts at regaining their hegemony in Europe, at which they do a middling good job.

Pretty nice world, as AH speculation goes.
I will have to get that book! :D
 
Didn't a lot of folks at the time think it was an offshoot of those Christian sects that denied Christ's divinity (such as the Arians)?

I think that's it. I know the rough outline but can't remember the details.

So an Arabic religion which is an offshoot of such might wind up with some uncannily similar aspects to OTL Islam - at least in terms of European reaction.
 
With Mohammed meeting an end before his revelations, remember that the Jewish/Arab tribes in Arabia were relatively numerous and influential/prosperous. In fact, Mohammed first allied with one tribe/grouping then another of the Jews and played them against each other, had they been united he would have been stopped early on. While Judaism is not a missionary religion, you could see pagan Arabs in some numbers intermarrying/converting. Imagine an Arabia with no "majority" religion but Jews, Christians (perhaps of 2-3 types depending on where in Arabia) and Zoroastrians coexisting more or less peacefully and a few pagan hold overs to boot.
 
Actually I could see Muhammed, if he does become Christian, taking it back to its Jewish roots in the vein of the Ebionites. The Law of Moses might be followed with some exceptions - Circumcision is probably out (even if he personally supported you will not get many new recruits), but the likes of animal sacrifice, revering Jerusalem as a holy city (along with pilgrimages) and laws against eating pigs etc come back in. From what we know about Muhammed he was violently opposed to any form of idolatry and might consider the Orthodox faith as having compromised too many beliefs for the pagans.

In some ways this might mirror the OTL reformation in that it is seen as 'returning' to the christianity as practiced by the apostles.
 
Actually I could see Muhammed, if he does become Christian, taking it back to its Jewish roots in the vein of the Ebionites. The Law of Moses might be followed with some exceptions - Circumcision is probably out (even if he personally supported you will not get many new recruits), but the likes of animal sacrifice, revering Jerusalem as a holy city (along with pilgrimages) and laws against eating pigs etc come back in. From what we know about Muhammed he was violently opposed to any form of idolatry and might consider the Orthodox faith as having compromised too many beliefs for the pagans.

In some ways this might mirror the OTL reformation in that it is seen as 'returning' to the christianity as practiced by the apostles.
Oswald Spengler actually made a claim that Islam and the Iconoclast Christians were roughly equivalent to the Western Reformation in his famous work The Decline of The West.
 
Oswald Spengler actually made a claim that Islam and the Iconoclast Christians were roughly equivalent to the Western Reformation in his famous work The Decline of The West.

Interesting. It sounds plausible enough, although with Islam it explicitly does not acknowledge Christ as the son of god so it's a bit harder to reconcile.
 
Coptics and Nestorians probably meet in the middle (if the Coptics/Ethiopians make it that far) and agree to combat the Zoroastrians. "Combat" not necessarily meaning militarily. More likely you'd still see an "Arab-flavored" Christianity.

Wasn't there already an "Arab flavored" Christianity in the form of the Lakhmid and Ghassanid kingdoms?
 
Just like what the title says: what would be the most plausible way to butterfly away Islam? I will let all of you determine the caveats yourselves. For instance, you could create a scenario in which Muhammad is killed, or one in which he is not killed but is wildly unsuccessful with spreading his message. Also, if Islam is butterflied away, what becomes the dominant religion in Arab lands and beyond? Who fills that vacuum?
The faith of Egypt, Ethiopia, and the Levant would probably gain prominence in Yemen and the Hejaz, the Persian-influenced Nestorian church would take the Gulf, and I have a fondness for the idea of Buddhism getting a foothold in Oman.

What would the butterflies be in Europe related to a Christian majority Arab people?
Given the attitude toward heretics? Little to none.

Explore the notion of Muhammad becoming a Christian. NOW we stir the pot!
As mentioned, Turtledove beat you to it.

I like the idea of Arabs starting a sternly puritanical and militant sect of Christianity. If it is a stern kind of Monophysitism they could easily "liberate" *wink-wink* the Monophysites of the Levant and Egypt from the "Chalchedonian heretics".
Between the Arab demographics being primed for a Volkswandrung and (presuming the lack of Islam is the only shift) the Romans and Persians having beaten each other 3/4 to death, I would call this a given.

Didn't a lot of folks at the time think it was an offshoot of those Christian sects that denied Christ's divinity (such as the Arians)?
Yup.
 
"Christianity" was still very undecided as to what was the true version. Perhaps the Arabians adopt Gnosticism or Nestorianism or something new.


Another possibility might be Manichaenism. It was remarkably tenacious, popping up in Medieval Europe as late as the 13C, despite fierce Christian persecution. Iirc it originated in Mesospotamia, so conceivably the Arabs might have picked it up at some point.
 
In my opinion, one of the best ways for Islam to be butterflied away would be for the Copts to be more active as missionaries in Arabia. I wouldn't go so far as to claim that Arabia was outside of Alexandria's orbit. Although I'm not sure where I could locate the information, I had heard that Mohammed himself was said to have had extensive communications with a Coptic monk. If you have a charismatic Copt attempting to spread "the True Faith in the One Incarnate Nature of Christ" in Arabia before Mohammed has time to develop Islam, then it would certainly be butterflied away. Miaphysitism has the advantage of being a Christianity that the Arabs could feel obliged to "liberate" from the Melchites, so as long as a charismatic Arab takes over from the Copt, we could see something like OTL's Muslim conquests, but I imagine they would go much smoother in the non-Roman parts of the Byzantine Empire. Since the Arabs would be practicing Christianity, though, Persia might be harder to hold down if the elite there associate it too much with their traditional Roman enemies, especially since the difference between Miaphysitism and Imperial Christianity can seem (pardon the pun) a bit byzantine.



Alternatively, the Persians might accept Christianity, but express their separate identity by going Nestorian instead of Coptic - rather as OTL they ended up Shia rather than Sunni.
 

Orry

Donor
Monthly Donor
The spy character even had him as his favourite saint. :D

"St. Mouamet, watch over me,", Argyros murmured.....

He found Mouamet one of the most inspiring saints on the calender. "There is no God but the Lord, and Christ is His Son," Argyros chanted softly.
(Agent of Byzantium: Harry Turtledove.)
 
Doesn't rule out the Eastern Church (promoted by Persia and staffed by Arab/Aramaic speakers) being more attractive to Arabs than the Greek church.

Or Ethiopia having much better ties with the Arabs instead.

If by "Eastern" you mean "Monophysite", then forget it. The Persians supported the Nestorians, who were a convenient common enemy for both Chalcedonians and Monophysites to unite around. From the point of view of the Sasanians, Monophysitism was simply a sect of Roman imperial Christianity.

Anyway, to answer the OP, the Arabs were well on the way to conversion to Monophysite Christianity by the late sixth century IOTL, so I'd guess this'll just continue in a world without Muhammad.
 
Top