Burr Wins the Presidency

started reading a book about Aaron Burr called Treason it gave me a thought, and I haven't really seen this before.

What if Aaron Burr "won" the Presidency in 1800 and Jefferson becomes Vice Presidency. Basically Burr and Jefferson get 73 EC votes and the election goes to the Federalist House. Burr tried to weaseled his way to the Presidency, Virgina and Pennsylvania called up their militia's and started to march on Washington.

How would the Union have survived if the House would have given Burr the Presidency? could it survive?
 

Keenir

Banned
started reading a book about Aaron Burr called Treason it gave me a thought, and I haven't really seen this before.

What if Aaron Burr "won" the Presidency in 1800 and Jefferson becomes Vice Presidency. Basically Burr and Jefferson get 73 EC votes and the election goes to the Federalist House. Burr tried to weaseled his way to the Presidency, Virgina and Pennsylvania called up their militia's and started to march on Washington.

How would the Union have survived if the House would have given Burr the Presidency? could it survive?

the Union survived far worse than Burr in OTL.

and in 1800? Washington himself demonstrated what should happen to those who rise up against the lawfully elected - this'll be the Whiskey Rebellion mark II.
(seriously, two of the largest and most politically-powerful states in the Union rebelling against the central government they asked for?)
 
started reading a book about Aaron Burr called Treason it gave me a thought, and I haven't really seen this before.

What if Aaron Burr "won" the Presidency in 1800 and Jefferson becomes Vice Presidency. Basically Burr and Jefferson get 73 EC votes and the election goes to the Federalist House. Burr tried to weaseled his way to the Presidency, Virgina and Pennsylvania called up their militia's and started to march on Washington.

How would the Union have survived if the House would have given Burr the Presidency? could it survive?

I haven't read Treason who wrote it? As for the scenario, I think the rebellion is unlikely, Burr was popular in the South as well as the North. He was respected by the Washington establishment. Pennsylvania won't rebel, it is against their interest to do so. The Western part of the state may not pay taxes (but they never really did). If Virginia rebels, which I consider slightly more likely although not much, then it would be swiftly put down and crushed. Remember the New Army had just been drawn down so it would have taken nothing to get it going again. So I think this is an unlikely scenario and more importantly I think the people who blustered about it were doing just that blustering.
 
Well one thing you have to remember and part of the reason why there was an uproar about it was Burr was voted for as Vice President with 73 votes and Jefferson was voted for as President with 73 votes, which is why it went to the House (convoluted i know, but that was how it went) I believe that the reason Virginia was marshaling troops was they saw it as Burr usurping the Presidency from Jefferson.

Now granted Burr didn't lobby for anyone to vote for him, and it was merely the Federalist that did it because they disliked Jefferson, with the exception of Hamilton who lobbied extensively for Jefferson because he would rather have someone with "wrong morals, over someone with no morals"

The book is by David Nevin. I'm not overly fond of the narrative style he uses, too flowery-dreamlike feel to it, but thats IMHO
 
Very True but the fact is Viriginia would have gone it alone and they would have known that. That is why they backed down away. You are correct in the reasons for the casting of the votes which is why we got the 12th (IIRC) Amendment. So I mean kind of Sour Grapes. I just don't think they would, they didn't in 1796 and that election had only a 3 vote bigger margin for Adams so if it went to Burr instead I don't think so. If it goes to Burr in the House maybe, depends upon how many ballots and how many Federalists vote Burr.
 
it did lead to the 12th amendment, It did go to the House. I can't really see a war being fought over it, more just the political fall out from such a change of events.

How much MORE of a pariah would Burr have been for actually winning? especially if he did do just enough lobbing to get the nod. or if Hamilton had been sick where he couldn't do anything about swinging votes.

what kind of President would Burr have been?
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Would Burr have allowed the purchase of all that territory? :eek:

It would be a very bad thing if we hadn't bought it. :(
Like I said, Jefferson was the least likely person to purchase the Louisiana Territory. Anybody else would still have bought it.
 
it did lead to the 12th amendment, It did go to the House. I can't really see a war being fought over it, more just the political fall out from such a change of events.

How much MORE of a pariah would Burr have been for actually winning? especially if he did do just enough lobbing to get the nod. or if Hamilton had been sick where he couldn't do anything about swinging votes.

what kind of President would Burr have been?

I know, but IOTL the South's guy won; in this case he didn't. So harder to say. As for Burr he is a pretty big political pariah methinks. Or he shows himself to be a true party organizes and sets up a center party as coalition between more centerist Federalists and D-Rs and governs through coalition. I think he would have moderate and probably surprisingly friendly to both sides. He takes the Louisiana offer and tries his damnedest to stay out of Europe but because of his fragile political position he may be drawn into Europe out hawking from Federalists and Republicans in his faction so to keep it together he may authorize more defense expenditures.
 
I dunno, GSM; I wouldn't overestimate the ability of the Virginia militia to react intelligently and calmly to developments. They would absolutely regard the House selecting Burr as an usurpation, I think, and could easily force Burr and Congress to flee Washington DC as they occupy it and install Jefferson. Then New York and New England militias show up, and it goes pear-shaped.

While breathtakingly financially inept, Burr gets high marks from me in just about everything else. And Jefferson was too, and was saved by a good Treasury Secretary; I shouldn't be at all surprised if President Burr actually keeps Hamilton on at Treasury (if the latter will stay), though, so he gets saved too. I'm certain he'd still buy Louisiana, although he'd breezily agree to a higher price than we payed OTL I shouldn't wonder. After his election debacle, I bet he agrees to an expansion of the military as a check on state militias.

Despite being formally a Democratic-Republican, Burr sided with the Federalists 3/4ths of the time as VP, so I suspect we see a lot of Adams policies continued.

1804 will be exciting: Burr fighting for re-election and able to point to the Louisiana Purchase, despite a civil uprising upon his installation; Jefferson presumably back for more, able to claim the 1800 election was stolen from him but having made an ass of himself during the impeachment trials of Federal judges as VP; with the D-Rs split, the Federalists have a shot again.
 
True but your facts are off. I may have given the Viriginians too much credit. As for Jefferson I think he opts out and may try to paint the picture ex post facto that he was dragged into the insurrection. Hamilton left the Treasury in 1795 and never looked back everything until his death in 1804 was done as a private citizen. In no situation ever will Hamilton work for Burr. He hated the man more than he hated he Jefferson which is why he backed Jefferson in the 1800 house vote. Hamilton considered Burr a threat to himself and his party. The things he said about Burr, well let's say its surprising that it took Burr that long to challenge Hamilton.
 
There's also how Burr didn't actually want to usurp Jefferson. Burr wrote to Jefferson offering to pull himself out of the race, so that Jefferson wouldn't have to depend on the whims of the House. IIRC, Jefferson told Burr to stay in the running, so that Adams wouldn't become VP.
 
Hamilton said a lot of intemperate things about Burr during and immediately after the campaign, but the two got along rather well before that. If Burr actually wins the Presidency, I can imagine he'd be more forgiving - and it's not entirely ASB for Hamilton to apologize.

Of course Jefferson will try to portray himself as swept along by events not of his making. Doesn't make it so ;)

The thing is, Hamilton left the Treasury because it didn't pay well, and his finances needed shoring up by taking some private clients again. Burr has the right combination of constructively applied sociopathy and obliviousness to fiscal realities to make it worth Hamilton's while. Hamilton may legitimately prefer private life, but the combination of "your country needs you - no, really" and "you need more money? no problem" is enough to make him think carefully about it I suspect.
 
Idk if Hamilton and Burr's relationship could be fixed by this time...Unless Hamilton is extremely ill and can't do any campaigning on Jefferson's behalf (which would be the POD). Hamilton thought Burr uncouth and without morals.

Virginia and Pennsylvania, from what I read had the militia called out and read to march if Burr is given the election. Now all it could have been is Saber Rattling, but all it takes is a couple of hotheaded idiots to start something.

I'm sure Burr had someone that would have been fine to run the treasury, the biggest issue would be whether Burr can get Madison to work for him as Sec of State, and thus getting him to negotiate the deal with Napoleon for Louisiana. Dolley could possibly talk Madison into doing it, but the rift he would create with the Dem-Repubs might be too big, especially if Burr actively campaigns for the position
 
In terms of the E.R. cabinets this one we seem to be drawing up for a Burr presidency is like one of those dream cabinets from the threads around here. Treasury: Hamilton, State: Madison blah blah blah. But seriously, Shawn I agree, but you are underestimating the animus a bit. I think if Burr asked nicely and found some plum jobs for some of his friends in New York than probably. As for Madison, anything is possible, I am not familiar with the man enough to know if he would take it or not. As for State alternatives, Governeur Morris is one, He had contacts and relations in France. John Marshall is another, I know he is Chief Justice and he probably wouldn't resign the post so soon after getting it but he had a relationship with Talleyrand from his days as Adams' envoy to France during the Quasi-war. He was the only person who Talleyrand would talk to without a bribe. One more person to consider, is Hamilton, Talleyrand considered the epoch of the 18th and 19th century shaped by 3 men: Napoleon, Hamilton and one more. So obviously immense respect for Hamilton from Talleyrand.

Marl d- this marching on Washington thing; you are correct about the calling up but I really feel that it was all posturing.
 
One more person to consider, is Hamilton, Talleyrand considered the epoch of the 18th and 19th century shaped by 3 men: Napoleon, Hamilton and one more. So obviously immense respect for Hamilton from Talleyrand.

It was Napoleon, Hamilton, and Charles Fox. Talleyrand also said that if he had to choose one of those three as the most important, he'd pick Hamilton without hesitation.
 
it probably was posturing, but that doesn't mean that Jefferson or someone else wouldn't have gone ballistic at Burr getting the Presidency that they wouldn't march on Washington given the right push.

with Madison, it might have taken a lot of work on Burr's part, but I'm sure he could be talked into the Sec of State position.

The biggest question would be, how would people view Burr after this? in a similar vein as GW Bush after 2000 election, but on a bigger scale? (some viewed him as illegitimate, and no i'm not getting into a debate on Bush.) the 1800 election was seen as the 2nd Revolution, a peaceful transition between governing philosophies, would it still be seen this way? and would anyone associated with his administration be forever tarnished? If Burr buys Louisiana as OTL or gets more territory is he still tarnished? Does Jefferson stay on as VP or resign? My guess is that the 12th amendment still gets put in place
 
Oh, the 12th Amendment will definitely still be put into place; no one is happy with this outcome in 1801 except Burr himself. I don't think it will be seen as a second revolution or a transition between governing philosophies because Burr is an operator, not a philosopher. His speeches, while witty and elegant, are short. He writes very little - the only of the Founders who never kept a diary, and is in fact mildly neurotic about refusing to write down anything he thinks he'll be able to remember. This is actually one of the main reasons his contemporaries weren't entirely comfortable with him - he never expounded on a governing philosophy at length, so we have to infer one from his votes and his conduct. He'll be seen as an evolution rather than a revolution - a moderate between Adams/Hamilton and Jefferson, perhaps followed by Jefferson or someone similar.

By 1804, I think people will be pleasantly surprised, especially about the Louisiana Purchase, and his reelection campaign, while hardly certain, is credible.

Whether or not Jefferson would resign as VP is an interesting question; with his protege Madison at State, I suspect he would do that. The Presidential succession is in good hands from his perspective, and he doesn't want to be VP for 4 more years under Burr. It'll keep his credibility up for 1804 as well.
 
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