BURNISHED ROWS OF STEEL: A History of the Great War (Foreward)

Ok I will start off with DAMN!!! Powerful stuff and you had me on edge with all the stuff coming down the pipe. It will be interesting on how things may go with Canada and if some of the Canadians will hold with the Empire and if any may decide to through off the yolk of England tyranny. I will guess that Jon Stanly will be a key person for the English when the story continues.

Guess we shall see what the English do after their note is rejected. Will they start an offensive or stay on the defensive? Will the US recruit privateers to go after British ships and might there be attempts by Americans to start rebellions/raids on some of the Caribbean Islands?

It will be interesting if any European countries might aid the Americans. Either by allowing US ships to shelter and replenish or even go on the offensive. The later seems pretty absurd, but many a war has that element.

Overall great update. :cool:
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Thanks - took a while to put it together;

there's about one more "scene-setting" conversation to recount, but then it will be mostly action and the occasional bit of color. I have been trying to lay out enough background on the realities of what a conflict like this would have been like, in terms of the politics, economics, and logistics.

Don't know if I've suceeded or not, but I've tried.

The Stanleys are an interesting family; everything in that scene, including the 1862 muslim convert first son, is historical. Turns out there's a direct line to the Mitford sisters, who were equally - um - eccentric. Amanda Foreman's book on Britain and the Civil War was inspiring; the excerpt from "Aaron Foreman's" work include in the prologue was my model for the "Russell of the Times" bit in that.

The conversations between Jonny Stanley and his father are my invention, but the ages, Capt. Stanley's military record, and Lord Stanley's concerns about the crisis are all real, from what I have come across.

Actually, every named character is historical, and their histories and positions are as "real" as I can make it. Part of why it takes a while to flesh out.

Like I said, one more "conversation" scene (although there is a definite tip in the current post) and there should move a little faster.

Best,
 

katchen

Banned
The Mississiqoi runs east from Lake Champlain past St. Albans, and then (roughly) north and east into what is now the province of Quebec; the map is of the Mississiqoi watershed, but you can see the river, St. Albans, and the border:

Missisquoi720grn.jpg
AHA! Now it makes sense! Thanks!:)
 

TFSmith121

Banned
You are quite welcome; like I said earlier, there

are all sorts of oddities on the US-Canadian border in the northeast.

Derby Line is probably the oddest, but where the border(s) fall on Lake Champlain is another - which will come into play in the next chapter.

Best,
 
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Well in my opinion you had the character voices down and I doubled checked about the Stanley's, and you are right. Very interesting family and I will wonder if the brother's conversion and the revelation of his wife being bigamous might have repercussions on his inheriting the title. Might we see John becoming the Baron in his own right, depending on how things may develop in Canada.

As I said before, I think you have a lot of talent and your research in the background of the characters really adds to the realism for me. :)
 
are all sorts of oddities on the US-Canadian border in the northeast.

Derby Line is probably the oddest, by where the border(s) fall on Lake Champlain is another - which will come into play in the next chapter.

Best,

Uh OH, a teasing clue to more mayhem and confusion on Northern Border. :eek:
 

TFSmith121

Banned
My take is there are always so many great characters in history,

why make anyone up?

Half the fun is finding the people to tell the story...

Best,
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Mayhem and confusion is a given;

Uh OH, a teasing clue to more mayhem and confusion on Northern Border. :eek:

As it was in border wars generally, and especially in terms of Britain and American conflicts with peer opponents in the 1841-81 period.

Best,
 
As it was in border wars generally, and especially in terms of Britain and American conflicts with peer opponents in the 1841-81 period.

Best,

Oh I understand it. Especially with communications being so delayed and out of touch from key commands, we may see lots of turmoil, unsanctioned raids, and deep raids coming about from both sides. A key factor that may come into play is if the Quebecois decide that they have had enough and declare neutrality or even their independence supported by the USA.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Very true, and there's also the "frontier" issue

In some ways, although there would undoubtedly be a fair number of set-piece battles/campaigns, any conflict in the Americas in the 1860s is likely to have a significant "bush" war type element, as in Kansas, Missouri, and the Indian Territory historically during the Civil War, or - for that matter - in Mexico during the French occupation, or South Africa in 1880. The nature of the type of conflict.

One of the differences in an 1860s-scenario from the previous Anglo-French and Anglo-American conflicts along the "old" northern border and the Great Lakes is the collapse of the Native American societies as a potential third force; that doesn't exist.

West of Lake Superior would be a different story.

Best,
 
I'd like to make three comments. I'm sorry for nitpicking to this extent, but if the beginning of a TL doesn't follow logically from the PoD, the entire rest of the TL flaps with webbed wings.

(A) What is France doing? I can't see Napoleon III avoiding intervention in the Americas when his dream—British support for his schemes—has just come true. And Prussia was hardly a great worry to France at this point; the French weren't very worried about Prussia until the Prussians surprised them by defeating Austria in 1866, or have I recalled wrongly? And Napoleon III won't need his whole army to keep Garibaldi away from the Pope. You've apparently decided that France will not intervene (otherwise, why "the Anglo-American war"?) but especially given Napoleon III's adventurous character I'm curious why you've made that decision.

(B) It's one thing to conclude (as you evidently have) that Britain would have lost a Trent war had it come to pass. It's quite another to conclude that the British themselves believed that. This was the time of the height of British power, and the idea that a small nation could not conquer and hold a large amount of territory, or indeed defeat a larger nation, was not clear at the time; just look at the British conquest of India and the then-recent Crimean War, respectively. The British were happy to invade South Africa and the fact that they became bogged down was a genuine surprise. Indeed, upon a cursory search, comments from the time seem to suggest that the British army and navy (not just the newspapers) were entirely confident in victory in the case of war against the United States at this time. I'm unconvinced that British officials and politicians would be as certain of inevitable defeat as you seem to think here; if anything, to be certain of inevitable victory seems likelier.

(C) In regard to your ultimatum:

"First, the release of Mason, Slidell, and their staff;
Two, an apology and compensation for the seizure of the Trent;
Three, an apology and compensation for the damage to the British warship Rinaldo;
Four, the dismissal of Captain Wilkes from the naval service;
Fifth, agreement to British naval operations on the Gulf and South Atlantic coasts designed to prevent the recurrence of incidents such as that in the Bahama Channel; essentially, to oversee the declared blockade by the United States Navy of the ports currently occupied by the rebels. Any disputes to be handled by the nearest British Admiralty court, presumably in Bermuda for the South Atlantic ports and Kingston for the Gulf ports…."

I presume the last point is the contentious one (and I remain unconvinced that the British would give it, though I'm happy to be convinced that I'm wrong by any evidence or argument) but for all the outrage of newspapers on both sides, I'm not convinced that President Lincoln would refuse. Even with all these PoDs, this hardly seems sufficient for the Union to risk war at this point. Why would he take this extra risk when it can't possibly improve the chances of his country and the Union seems likely to win as it is? Only, presumably, for personal political advantage—and I'm not sure if Lincoln was cynical enough and risk-taking enough to deliberately trigger a war that (for all that anybody at the time knew) he might very well lose, in which case his country would be permanently partitioned, for personal political gain. Seward I can believe, Lincoln less so.
 
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TFSmith121

Banned
First, thanks for reading, and the thoughtful questions

(A) What is France doing?
(B) It's one thing to conclude (as you evidently have) that Britain would have lost a Trent war had it come to pass. It's quite another to conclude that the British themselves believed that.
(C) In regard to your ultimatum:.

Answers to A, B, and C:

A. Napoleon III is pursuing his own interests; at the moment, that includes blockading Veracruz under the terms of the Convention of London, making encouraging noises toward the British and the Confederacy, and thinking deeply about his future, including about the fact the French have troops spread from China to the Papal States and that he needs the support of Catholics, in France and elsewhere; whether his interests are the same as those of France remains to be seen.

B. Opinion was divided in Britain, both generally and specifically within the Palmerston Cabinet; there was an English historian named Kenneth Bourne who spent quite a bit of time looking into what amounted to the proceedings of the ad hoc British war cabinet in the winter of 1861-62, including original research in the papers of everyone from Palmerston to Cornewall-Lewis to Somerset (Seymour) to Stanley, in fact; he published a monograph in 1961 (which I have posted in the past) and followed it up with a book a few years later. Basically, although there was a general feeling the RN could in fact both break the blockade of the rebel ports and impose one on the US Atlantic seaboard, the realities of a land war in the Americas were not any different in 1861 then they had been in 1815 or 1781, and were recognized as such.

Amanda Foreman's "A World on Fire" came out a few years ago and, not surprisingly, includes a pretty extensive discussion of the Trent Affair; what I have written here draws on Foreman and Bourne and one more author who has yet to be included; given that he was a contemporaneous source who knew of what he wrote, I think that should be reasonably convincing no thoughtful Briton was sanguine about an Anglo-American war in North America at this point. He will show up in the next chapter.

As far as Stanley's "opinion" goes, it is based on the cited sources, his liberalism, and the circumstances of his sons' lives in this period; seemed too good to pass up. Be aware that the eccentricities of the Stanleys are "real"; the 3rd baron did, in fact, become a Muslim and commit to a bigamous marriage with a Spanish Catholic; another son became a Catholic clergyman. Capt. Stanley is one of two (the other being the younger son, who also made it to America in this era) who promises to be a suitable heir. If it sounds too much to believe, they were, in fact, ancestors of the Mitfords...

C. Well, it's not war yet; but the Lincoln Cabinet's vote to say no to the British note (by saying "yes" to something yet to be revealed) is a promise to meet force with force, essentially; given the British support for the rebellion in 1861 (despite the public statements regarding neutrality) anything less is surrender.

The fifth (fictional) point is essentially what the British and French asked for in the Black Sea after Sinope, which is what led (immediately) to war with the Russians in 1854, and in terms of being a short of war measure, somewhat similar to what the Convention of London demanded of the Mexicans in 1860; it struck me as the sort of half step someone of Palmerston's age, temperment, and position would have felt appropriate in this "bloodier" confrontation, yet falls short of an outright declaration of war.

Yet from the US position, it amounts to the US accepting British "guardianship" of the blockade, which is tantamount to opening the rebel ports and outright British government suppport for the Confederacy. I can't see the US accepting it, or the British accepting something similar, any more than the Russians or Mexicans did historically, or - for that matter - the Chileans and Peruvians accepting it from the Spanish later in the decade.

Best,
 
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Well for what it may help, I am cool with your POD, using examples from history and extrapolating from them, and tossing in just interesting mindsets. Please keep up the good work and post updates when you are able. I am a fan and expect to stay the course sir. :)
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Thanks - trying to keep it within the realm of the possible

...,using examples from history and extrapolating from them, and tossing in just interesting mindsets....

One of the things that should become clear from this is how much would have had to "change" for a war to break out; the US and UK were far from it, even during the worst crises, either Trent or the Laird rams, in this period.

Best,
 
One of the things that should become clear from this is how much would have had to "change" for a war to break out; the US and UK were far from it, even during the worst crises, either Trent or the Laird rams, in this period.

Best,

I do understand that and the better AH books and stories use that creed as well. It is a build up of very many factors, personalities, and sometimes random shit to get things moving. Once there is movement then inertia may take over and before you know it, events are nowhere what you had planned on. :eek:
 
Great TL! I was wondering, OTL, were there any major uprisings by the Quebecois? They seem to have made up a much larger proportion of the population in Canada then than they do at present.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Definitely; the "Guns of August" is the archetype

I do understand that and the better AH books and stories use that creed as well. It is a build up of very many factors, personalities, and sometimes random shit to get things moving. Once there is movement then inertia may take over and before you know it, events are nowhere what you had planned on. :eek:

Definitely; the "Guns of August" is the archetype...and there is a lot of "random shit" in history, what the theorists of the day called "friction" and what others would probably call "chance" or "luck."

There are definitely long-term developments over time (shades of Bloch and Braudel and the Annales School) that set the stage for the events of a given period, but the greater events are very much influenced by smaller things, including the acts of individuals...perhaps facile, but there it is.

Best,
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Merci - in the 1861 census of BNA (remember, Canada was "just" a province

Great TL! I was wondering, OTL, were there any major uprisings by the Quebecois? They seem to have made up a much larger proportion of the population in Canada then than they do at present.

Based on the 1861 census, BNA's population was (roughly - understand all this was done at the time with pen and paper) 3.2 million people:

Province of Canada (2.5 million); NB (252K); NS (330K); PEI (80K);

The source is a war ministry gazeteer published in London in 1863, by HMSO; figured they'd have it right.

The linguistic split was about 60-40 in the Province of Canada, which consisted of the souther/southeastern thirds of present day Ontario and Quebec; maybe 900,000 Francophone, IIRC.

Yes, the Quebecois will be heard from, in various ways...

Best,
 
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