burgundy

if Charles the Bold leaves male heirs
the territories of the house of Valois-Burgundy dont end up being swallowed by other powers
the habsurgs and so later on the spanish never recieve control of the netherlans/belgium region ( so detracting from their rise )
and a powerful kingdom based around the low countries and the rhine is there to make its way through history
it would have been rich
and it would have been strategically placed to take advantage of
the weakness of the german states in the east
the conflict between france and england

the habsburgs would never have become so powerful etc
spain never assumes a dominance it does
 
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timeline or WI ?
A WI (What-If) generally is a simple discussion on what would happen with a specific (or not) Point of Divergence (POD). For instance, a thread titled "WI Nazis won WWII?" would begin by merely posing the question and opening up the thread to discussion of the WI.

A Timeline (TL) generally answers a WI, and begins with the thread-maker already having an idea of what would happen in the Alternate Timeline (ATL).


ex: "WI Nazis won WWII?" would be a thread discussing all the possible things that would happen if Nazis won WWII and why they would happen, while "TL: Nazis won WWII" would be a specific person's idea of what would happen if Nazis won WWII. Other posters could criticize or comment on the thread-maker's take on things, but the thread-maker would have the final say on what goes and what doesn't.

Generally a person makes a bunch of WI threads to find out stuff about a period they like and what other people think might happen, and then make a TL once they're sure their idea is based on something good.
 
thanx

OK its a WI
that radically alters the history of europe and the world
france would have been hard pressed to fight england as well
 
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OK its a WI
that radically alters the history of europe and the world
france would have been hard pressed to fight england as well

Unless England thought that Burgundy was a bigger threat and teamed up with France to take the rich Low Countries...
 
Unless England thought that Burgundy was a bigger threat and teamed up with France to take the rich Low Countries...

Why would they do that? it was traditional policy by this point to keep the Low Countries out of the hands of England's enemies.
 
Why would they do that? it was traditional policy by this point to keep the Low Countries out of the hands of England's enemies.
Well, maybe allying with France is unrealistic, but Henry VI attacked Burgundy in OTL. So even without the French alliance, someone like Henry VIII might want to seize Flanders for himself.
 
The big problem witht the Burgundy lands is that they are not continuous. That's what drove Charles to attack all his life and ultimately to his death.

The goal will be the same to any heir to Buegundy. In order to get continuity, they must have either french or imperial lands. They cannot get the imperial ones by wedding ( too many independent parts ). So it's either fight the HRE or the french ( dangerious and getting more so ) or trying to get Lorraine by wedding. Something the french king will try to oppose with all his might.

But if he fails... House of Burgundy-Lorraine?

That will have some very interesting effects on french politics. And when the reformation comes, it could be a powerful support for Protestantism.

Mmmm... In that case, I can well see the whole of France becoming protestant.
 
The big problem witht the Burgundy lands is that they are not continuous. That's what drove Charles to attack all his life and ultimately to his death.

The goal will be the same to any heir to Buegundy. In order to get continuity, they must have either french or imperial lands. They cannot get the imperial ones by wedding ( too many independent parts ). So it's either fight the HRE or the french ( dangerious and getting more so ) or trying to get Lorraine by wedding. Something the french king will try to oppose with all his might.

But if he fails... House of Burgundy-Lorraine?

That will have some very interesting effects on french politics. And when the reformation comes, it could be a powerful support for Protestantism.

Mmmm... In that case, I can well see the whole of France becoming protestant.

Charles the Bold already took Lorraine in OTL and expelled Duke Rene II. If the POD involves him winning, then Burgundy will keep Lorraine and thus the Netherlands and Burgundy will be connected.
 
I think the best prospects for Burgundy are in not inheriting any of the low countries.
Admittedly this would have made them poorer initially but they'd be more likely to follow assimilation of their local neighbours (by marriage/conquest/etc) than more distant lands.
Maybe this would result in a Burgundy buffer state between France and HRE/Germany/Whatever.
 
If Ile-de-France never became a power...

...if rival centres presented themselves on the continent, such as Burgundy. It might mean that England retains an interest/s on the continent (not having a monolithic France to force them off), thereby keeping them closer to the continent. The Anglo-Norman aristocrats thereby retain considerable influence say in...Aquitaine?
 
Charles the Bold already took Lorraine in OTL and expelled Duke Rene II. If the POD involves him winning, then Burgundy will keep Lorraine and thus the Netherlands and Burgundy will be connected.

The PoD was him leaving male heirs, not him winning. Which is quite a different thing. I assumed the TL would follow OTL until charles death, except for the sex of his heir.

Charles winning is quite a different thing. The problem was that he wasn't fighting only Lorraine, but also the Swiss, both propped up by french gold and the HRE also didn't like him.

So you either have to explain how he wins against all his foes or make him a better politician and not get so many foe.

I've got an idea along those lines I'd like to devellop one day, but the PoD is earlier : Louis XI is a bit of a retard due to a difficult birth .
 
...if rival centres presented themselves on the continent, such as Burgundy. It might mean that England retains an interest/s on the continent (not having a monolithic France to force them off), thereby keeping them closer to the continent. The Anglo-Norman aristocrats thereby retain considerable influence say in...Aquitaine?


WAy too late. By the time Charles came to power, France was created and the English were kicked off. You need to avoid the 100y war at least to get what you want.
 
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