Burgundy survives far longer.

This thing, no?
frisiawapen.jpg

It evolved into that. Originally the now golden billets were silver coins (the number of those varied though) and the lions were facing the observer (like the lions in the coat of arms of England; and the lions in the West Frisian part of the coat of arms of the province of North Holland).
Sometimes a version without coins (or billets) was used.

The version used in Holland and Gelre (it might end up being armed and langued gules, which is a change not uncommon IOTL, but IOTL that didn't happen for Friesland though):

CoAFrisia.jpg
 
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As someone who is in fact currently writing a Burgundy-centered timeline(see signature), I feel I am in a good position to respond to this. I agree, have Charles the Bold be less of an idiot is probably the best way to do this. Having one of the earlier sons of Phillip the Good by Isabella of Portugal survive is a good option, but in my timeline instead I'm going to have Bonne of Artois survive and have children.
Alternatively, having Charles the Bold come to Edward IV's aid in 1473 is a good POD.
Burgundy needs continued instability in France to solidify its position, and a more conservative expansionist policy and better diplomacy than under Charles the Bold.
Scipio
 
It evolved into that. Originally the now golden billets were silver coins (the number of those varied though) and the lions were facing the observer (like the lions in the coat of arms of England; and the lion in the West Frisian part of the coat of arms of the province of North Holland).
Sometimes a version without coins (or billets) was used.

The version used in Holland and Gelre:
I see. I'll keep that in mind for future coats of arms if I decide to take the Frisia path in my TL. Sure beats the CoA of Lothryk, that's for sure.


As someone who is in fact currently writing a Burgundy-centered timeline(see signature), I feel I am in a good position to respond to this. I agree, have Charles the Bold be less of an idiot is probably the best way to do this. Having one of the earlier sons of Phillip the Good by Isabella of Portugal survive is a good option, but in my timeline instead I'm going to have Bonne of Artois survive and have children.
Alternatively, having Charles the Bold come to Edward IV's aid in 1473 is a good POD.
Burgundy needs continued instability in France to solidify its position, and a more conservative expansionist policy and better diplomacy than under Charles the Bold.
Scipio
One idea I had was for Charles the Bold to suffer some sort of accident or disease to make him less active. Could just result in him becoming really bitter, depending on what affects him, but anything to make him less rash would help.

I almost get paranoid whenever I read that someone else has decided to give a Burgundy TL a try before me. :p

Good thing there's so many potentially interesting PoDs for a surviving Burgundian state to go around.
 
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Like Kuld said, Paris trumps Dijon & Brussels, so when they inherit the throne, they pack their bags and move the main residence to Paris ASAP. Just like the Hannoverian kings of Britain were King of Britain first, and Elector of Hannover second.

Your right, if the house of Valois-Burgundy manages to survive that long. If not, this kingdom would have been inherited through the female line; which was one of the requests important to the Burgundian dukes during the negotiations for a crown and the practice in most of their holdings. The duchy of Burgundy is a 'special case' though, historically the Capetian dukes of Burgundy had that privilege and that was claimed by the Valois dukes of Burgundy too, however the king of France tended to see Burgundy as an appanage. This partly has to do with how king John the Good inherited Burgundy and that he stayed king of France and duke of Burgundy and thus keeping Burgundy separate from the French crown. He later left Burgundy to his youngest son and that grant was confirmed by his successor (and eldest brother of the new duke of Burgundy).

Depending on the time of such a succession, a coalition could have forced to leave this kingdom to a younger son, when they inherit France. OTOH
merging those will probably face similar difficulties as IOTL England and Scotland, before Great Britain and have similar issues afterward. Certainly if it was independent long enough and managed to stay relatively intact.
 
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Your right, if the house of Valois-Burgundy manages to survive that long. If not, this kingdom would have been inherited through the female line; which was one of the requests import to the Burgundian dukes during the negotiations for a crown and the practice in most of their holdings. The duchy of Burgundy is a 'special case' though, historically the Capetian dukes of Burgundy had that privilege and that was claimed by the Valois dukes of Burgundy too, however the king of France tended to see Burgundy as an appanage. This partly has to do with how king John the Good inherited Burgundy and that he stayed king of France and duke of Burgundy and thus keeping Burgundy separate from the French crown. He later left Burgundy to his youngest son and that grant was confirmed by his successor (and eldest brother of the new duke of Burgundy).

Depending on the time of such a succession, a coalition could have forced to leave this kingdom to a younger son, when they inherit France. OTOH
merging those will probably face similar difficulties as IOTL England and Scotland, before Great Britain and have similar issues afterward. Certainly if it was independent long enough and managed to stay relatively intact.

Burgundy was never seen as a apanage by the kings of France. It was always a great fief of the crown. John II gained it by inheritance through his mother, and passed it down to his youngest son. Unlike say, Louis of Anjou or John of Berry's lands, which were indeed apanages.

Kuld von Reyn, what books are you reading for research. I am in the middle of Richard's Vaughan's Dukes of Burgundy series, and I've read several other books for the timeline. I look forward to your timeline, there are a lot of good POD's to go around and mine has a different spin to it, with Henry V surviving and completing a piecemeal conquest of France. The Burgundian state will also have different borders than one might expect by about 1500.
Scipio
 
Burgundy was never seen as a apanage by the kings of France. It was always a great fief of the crown. John II gained it by inheritance through his mother, and passed it down to his youngest son. Unlike say, Louis of Anjou or John of Berry's lands, which were indeed apanages.

Kuld von Reyn, what books are you reading for research. I am in the middle of Richard's Vaughan's Dukes of Burgundy series, and I've read several other books for the timeline. I look forward to your timeline, there are a lot of good POD's to go around and mine has a different spin to it, with Henry V surviving and completing a piecemeal conquest of France. The Burgundian state will also have different borders than one might expect by about 1500.
Scipio
Those are the ones I picked up as well. The focus of my TL is going to be more on Germany and the Low Countries than on France and England, so I guess our timelines won't overlap all that much. I'll be following your TL as well. From what I can tell from a quick glance through the first post, the main PoD seems to involve the survival of John the Fearless, which is always fun to see.
 
Burgundy was never seen as a apanage by the kings of France. It was always a great fief of the crown. John II gained it by inheritance through his mother, and passed it down to his youngest son. Unlike say, Louis of Anjou or John of Berry's lands, which were indeed apanages.

(...)
Scipio

That and/or the denial of the right of female inheritance, a privilege held by the Capetian dukes of Burgundy and claimed by the Valois dukes too, is often given as a justification for the actions or 'smart political move' of Louis XI Since Louis managed to take lands of his now dead rival and weaken a potential threat to France; the main line of the house of Valois and the house of Valois-Burgundy had become bitter rivals. Anyway France did consider Burgundy a reverted fief. Another reason is the lese majesty Charles the Bold had committed according to Louis XI, anyway territories were seized by the French king. The way how the house of Valois-Burgundy gained Burgundy, like I wrote in my previous post, made the situation more complex; but at the end of the day politics was the greatest motive.
All of this wasn't accepted by the heirs of duchess Mary the rich of Burgundy, the house of Habsburg, which continued the usage of the title and for instance Charles V later made attempts to the duchy back.
 
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