Build your own Luftwaffe

[Deleted member 1487]

Wouldn't regular high altitude bombing of Scapa Flow be at least a bit disruptive? I mean, with safety compromised even there, the Royal Navy would have to be a bit uncomfortable. Kind of like Kure in Japan.

Which is why they shortly changed anchorage out of Scapa to the West Coast of Scotland, which was even better defended by against aerial targets because of the Dowding system.

 

[Chris Triangle]

And what about armament? American and British fighters were loaded up with 6, 8, even 12 machine guns yet rarely had cannon. German and Japanese planes had two machine guns and a few high caliber auto cannons when they were on the defensive and when they were on the offensive. What is the better arrangement, more and small or few and big? Do they both get the job done?

 

[Riain]

I think at the start the Luftwaffe was pretty good, but rushed the follow-on to its initial aireecraft so they never had an impact. That's where I'd focus my efforts, the generation of 1942/3, so the Bf109, He111 etc can be retired.

 

[Chris Triangle]

I think at the start the Luftwaffe was pretty good, but rushed the follow-on to its initial aireecraft so they never had an impact. That's where I'd focus my efforts, the generation of 1942/3, so the Bf109, He111 etc can be retired.

Was the Bf-109 really that aged?

 

[Riain]

It was by 1943, and it was a shocker by 1945, the late model's roll rate were abysmal which made the maneuvreability suck.

 

[DD951]

And what about armament? American and British fighters were loaded up with 6, 8, even 12 machine guns yet rarely had cannon. German and Japanese planes had two machine guns and a few high caliber auto cannons when they were on the defensive and when they were on the offensive. What is the better arrangement, more and small or few and big? Do they both get the job done?

As far as guns go, all the combatants except the US went towards cannon as the war went on, with the British as the war went on & their ironing out the bugs in their copies of the HS-404 (Hispano Mk. II & V), started swapping cannon in place of a couple machine guns, then all-cannon. The US didn't really use their copy of the British Hispano because US Army Ordnance seriously botched the reverse-engineering & conversion to US production methods, resulting in grossly unreliable weapons- Tony Williams has an article about that on his website here.

The stats favoring the large batteries of .50 BMGs used in US fighters are somewhat skewed by the fact that they typically engaged other fighters or lightly-built Japanese aircraft, which couldn't take as much punishment as a heavy bomber such as a B-17 or Lancaster- the US would have had some issues had those been part of the air threat they faced.

Cannon were considerably more powerful than cannon- the 4x20 mm Hispano Mk. V that the British were heading towards as a standard at the end of WW2 was more than twice as effective as the 6x.50 BMG that was standard on most US designs for a similar space/weight impact. From the same analyses on Tony Williams' site, it was determined that the most efficient armament for a WW2 fighter would have been a few powerful cannon mounted around the engine & the wing roots.

These articles from the site may be of further interest here:

Analysis of WW2 fighter gun effectiveness

Cannons vs. machine guns

Ideal WW2 fighter armament

 

[Jeeves]

Well, I would have loved to have seen if I can get my hands on some of those Japanese Radial Engines mentioned here, except that I would have used a Twin Charge Design (Crank Driven Twin Screw Supercharger for the low end, and an exhaust-driven Twin Scroll Turbo for the high end. Also, I'll see if I can change the valvetrain to a SOHC arrangement for fewer moving parts and less valvetrain slop.

I'm sorry, but that'll never work ... adding two different supercharging systems will just make the engine extremely complicated and rather heavy - thus wiping out the main advantages the Japanese engines had. You'll never be able to use the turbocharger to increase power sufficiently to regain the original power-to-weight ratio, the engine won't take the thermal load.

Not to mention the fact that Germany doesn't have the resources to make a lot of turbochargers nor the metallurgy to make them reliable. Turbochargers for diesel engines with their far lower combustion temperatures were the best they could do.

And how exactly is a single overhead camshaft going to work on a radial engine? Or any sort of camshaft, for that matter. I've only ever seen radials using cam rings geared to the crank, with rocker arms actuating the valves.

 

[rudebadger]

Hypothetical: it's the late 1930's and you're in charge of selecting the German Luftwaffe's designs. You are preparing for a war with the French and British air forces. Knowing what designs worked and what didn't while working within the technical and production limitations of German Industry, what projects would you emphasize, what designs would you prioritize and what technologies would you pursue? For example, would you make plans to replace the bf-109 or simply upgrade it? Would you concentrate on fighters, bombers or interceptors? Feel free to do the same for any other air force you like at the same time. Including the French.

Unless you've got voodoo dolls of Hitler, Goering and all the rest ready to bend to your will, this sounds almost ASB. So many of the nazi's problems were caused by self-inflicted stupidity and sheer ignorance that is hard to believe to have actually happened. I can't imagine that the British, Russians and the rest are going to sit around and let the Reich build a UberLuftwaffe unchallenged.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

And what about armament? American and British fighters were loaded up with 6, 8, even 12 machine guns yet rarely had cannon. German and Japanese planes had two machine guns and a few high caliber auto cannons when they were on the defensive and when they were on the offensive. What is the better arrangement, more and small or few and big? Do they both get the job done?

The cannons were necessary for bomber destruction, as the Allies discovered in 1940-42 and it helps with taking down fighters quicker too. So I'd say it was necessary...but when the Allies had huge numerical superiority in 1944 it was less necessary, as they could pretty much gangbang any German or Japanese fighter they ran into.

 

[Chris Triangle]

Unless you've got voodoo dolls of Hitler, Goering and all the rest ready to bend to your will, this sounds almost ASB. So many of the nazi's problems were caused by self-inflicted stupidity and sheer ignorance that is hard to believe to have actually happened. I can't imagine that the British, Russians and the rest are going to sit around and let the Reich build a UberLuftwaffe unchallenged.

This thread is obviously an exercise, not a timeline. What in the world gave you the impression that I thought a few little changes would leave the Luftwaffe super "unchallenged"? Heck, even the 8th air force with the full might of the USA behind it wasn't unchallenged. I just wanted to know what people thought could have been done because it's a great way to quantify just how good or bad decisions were in real life.

 

[Chris Triangle]

I'm sorry, but that'll never work ... adding two different supercharging systems will just make the engine extremely complicated and rather heavy - thus wiping out the main advantages the Japanese engines had. You'll never be able to use the turbocharger to increase power sufficiently to regain the original power-to-weight ratio, the engine won't take the thermal load.

Not to mention the fact that Germany doesn't have the resources to make a lot of turbochargers nor the metallurgy to make them reliable. Turbochargers for diesel engines with their far lower combustion temperatures were the best they could do.

And how exactly is a single overhead camshaft going to work on a radial engine? Or any sort of camshaft, for that matter. I've only ever seen radials using cam rings geared to the crank, with rocker arms actuating the valves.

I heard there were attempts to put overhead camshafts on radials but for all intents and purposes, I don't think it was really worth the trouble of development except maybe in those huge 4-row designs. I think the idea was that there were gears in the back of the engine that somehow connected to and drove the 7 independent camshafts. That sounds as complex as the normal system is simple.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I'd also like to add that I wouldn't stop the funding for the DB603 in 1937, nor stop funding for the expansion of DB601 production like the Jumo 211 production was expanded pre-war. Also I'd like to try and expand Tego Film production so that the Ta154 doesn't get delayed/destroyed by the loss of the glue that holds it wood together. Plus the funding of increase DB engine production and an earlier DB603 (at least a year earlier with stable RLM funding) would mean the Ta154 gets in the air earlier. Fitted with the DB603 instead of the Jumo 211R, then they would be much faster and could keep up and excede the Mosquito in speed. They would be in the air in late 1943/early 1944 without the testing delays imposed by the delayed Jumo 213s and the loss of Tego Film production in Wuppertal in 1943.

Of course with an early DB603 there are a whole host of projects that could have appeared earlier, including the FW190 and the Do217, both at least a year earlier (the Do217 didn't really get mass produced until 1942, same with the FW190 because of engine issues with the BMW801's overheating). Jumo loses market shares until 1943-4 depending on when the Jumo 213 gets into mass production. Plus the DB's have better specific fuel consumption than the Jumos according to wikipedia, so range increases.

Edit:
I'd also have Dornier work on a fresh push-pull design for a fighter and keep the Do335 as a high speed bomber, though perhaps a large high speed derivative for a night fighter.

 

[Detlef]

Fighter:
Me109 (main until FW190 then 50%, upgrade marks about 2x per year, high altitude)
Fw187 (upgrade until Do335 is ready)
Ju88C ("")
later Fw190 (upgrade and keep in service for low altitude work (-20,000 ft)

Principally agree.
But if you mention the Do 335 then I´d also mention the Ta 152. Especially the H version (high altitude).

Night Fighters:
Ju88C and G (upgrade for as long as possible)
Focus on centimetric radar that Germany had in 1935, but abandoned.

Agree.

Bombers:
He111 (until 1940-1 then replace with Do217)
Ju88 and 188 (not dive bomber version) (main bomber)
He177 (not dive bomber or two propellor) (strategic bomber, upgrade size and load...avoid Amerika bomber diversion)
Do217 (when available in 1941)

Agree.

Naval Bombers:
He111 (until Ju88 is produced enough)
Ju88 (replace with Do217)
Do217
Do119 (developed Do19) for long range offensive recon

Agree.
Naval air could have used a few dedicated Fw 187 too.

Recon:
Do119
Do18
Do26
Fw189
Fi Storck
Hs 126

Why the Hs 126 when you already have the Fi 156 Storck and Fw 189?
Some Ju 88 in between the Fi 156 and the Do 119? Or use of the older Ju 86 in the P version as a high altitude recon plane (first flown early 1940) until you get a more modern one?
Why the Do 18 and 26? Wouldn´t the Bv 138 and Do 24 make more sense?

Tactical Bombers:
Hs123 (keep in production)
Hs129 (low production until Gnome Rhone, then 40% of Tactical)
Ju87 (D and G versions main, reduce to night bomber by 1943 and 10%)
Fw190 (CAS version then 30%)
Ju88C (20% for train busting, heavy fighter-bomber, light bomber-ground attack, LAAR)

What´s the use of the Ju 87 as a night bomber?
Agree with the rest.

Transport:
Ju52 (replace with Ju252 when ready)
Ju252 (100% when ready)

I like the Ar 232 myself. Less range than the Ju 252 but STOL and rough terrain capable. So maybe a mixture?

Jets:
Start producing in 1944 when ready, specialist units only
Me262
Ar234

Agree.
Add RM4 rockets? Maybe Hs293 and FritzX?

First of course you´d have to eliminate Goering.
(He´ll never give you enough authority to make all these choices. Chances are he´d approve a less capable airplane just to show you and everyone else who´s the boss.)
Second you´d need to keep tight control of the RLM (air force department). They´re capable of shutting down promising projects just because of bureaucratic infighting.
Third: Develop drop tanks
Fourth you´d need to streamline engine production too. If you inherit from Goering also his position as being in charge of the four year plan that´s doable. Of course then you could also:
Fifth: Research and develop high octane aviation fuel earlier. Needed for more powerful aviation engines.
Sixth: Stockpile "rare" metals needed in a war (assuming you can pay for them).
Seventh: If you´re in control of the four year plan then you´d also be in an excellent position to streamline army and naval production. Getting rid of waste there and introducing assembly line production. Which would influence things a lot more than just choosing airplanes.

And if you manage all that competently then Hitler might see you as a serious danger to himself.

 

[Chris Triangle]

What´s the use of the Ju 87 as a night bomber?
Agree with the rest.

That surprised me too. I figured he knew something I didn't know about its development.... All I can say is that I wouldn't want to be the guy doing night dive bombing.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

That surprised me too. I figured he knew something I didn't know about its development.... All I can say is that I wouldn't want to be the guy doing night dive bombing.

OTL it was used in that capacity from 1943 after it was pretty much too dangerous to use in the daylight role, though it did soldier on in daylight into 1944. Dive bombing was stopped in daylight by 1943 and by night it was pure level bombing. Pretty much the Luftwaffe was trying to find a use for the outdated aircraft still on hand, when all airframes capable of flying were needed.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Principally agree.
But if you mention the Do 335 then I´d also mention the Ta 152. Especially the H version (high altitude).

Agreed. And Ta154.

Agree.
Naval air could have used a few dedicated Fw 187 too.

Agreed.

Why the Hs 126 when you already have the Fi 156 Storck and Fw 189?
Some Ju 88 in between the Fi 156 and the Do 119? Or use of the older Ju 86 in the P version as a high altitude recon plane (first flown early 1940) until you get a more modern one?
Why the Do 18 and 26? Wouldn´t the Bv 138 and Do 24 make more sense?

I had the Hs126 because of greater range, but forgot about the Ju88 in the recon role. Forget the HS126 then. Yes, forgot about the Ju86P too, let's add that. Perhaps the FW187 as a recon aircraft because of its high speed; it would be a better mosquito-type recon aircraft than the mosquito.
The Do18 because of stocks on hand in 1939. Use them if you got them.
The Do26 had better range than the Do24. It was also faster than the BV138 and had about the same range IIRC.

What´s the use of the Ju 87 as a night bomber?
Agree with the rest.

Answered in the above post. Basically finding a use for on hand stocks after it was too vulnerable during the day. Not as a dive bomber at night of course, just level bombing.

I like the Ar 232 myself. Less range than the Ju 252 but STOL and rough terrain capable. So maybe a mixture?

Mix is fine by me.

Agree.
Add RM4 rockets? Maybe Hs293 and FritzX?

Agreed.

First of course you´d have to eliminate Goering.
(He´ll never give you enough authority to make all these choices. Chances are he´d approve a less capable airplane just to show you and everyone else who´s the boss.)

Planning to in a TL I'm researching.
He's too much of a problem to live.

Second you´d need to keep tight control of the RLM (air force department). They´re capable of shutting down promising projects just because of bureaucratic infighting.

The best thing is to prevent infighting by killing off Goering, having Milch remain in total control with Wever and his technical staff and plan a single production strategy with the professionals in the Wimmer technical department. Move Udet to test pilot and out of inspector role. Wever would also have to expand training quite a bit to deal with the flood of production that would result.

Third: Develop drop tanks

Not really necessary with the FW187, but the problem was that although they existed IOTL, they required materials that were in shortage because of the raw material crisis and later blockade.

Fourth you´d need to streamline engine production too. If you inherit from Goering also his position as being in charge of the four year plan that´s doable. Of course then you could also:

Have Milch in charge of the RLM and Loeb in the production planning office when the raw materials crisis hits and everything is going to get audited for waste, which will turn up the major problems in engine production. Also it should help prevent Udet playing favorites with engine producers and only expanding Jumo engine production without expanding DB engine production.

Milch and the RLM get blames with a lot of things that happened IOTL from 1936-1942 that really was to do with Udet and the Luftwaffe technical department, Goering, and Milch being sidelined while the aircraft developers were empowered to do whatever they wanted.

With a competent professional like Fritz Todt in the 4 year plan, then things will move MUCH more smoothly in just about every facet of production. A major problem that German industry had was a shortage of engineers because of the depression, not enough work so fewer students during critical years, which Todt, as head of the German Engineers Society, would and did notice IOTL and rectify in 1936 when he gets the 4 year plan office and power to do something about it. More engineer changes all sorts of problems that the military and production had.

Fifth: Research and develop high octane aviation fuel earlier. Needed for more powerful aviation engines.

Interestingly it was offered in the mid-1930's, but apparently the Luftwaffe didn't want to take on the cost of it...which they changed later on. Its hard to see them understanding why it was useful considering there were so few engineers in power positions that understood these technical issues.

Sixth: Stockpile "rare" metals needed in a war (assuming you can pay for them).

That's the problem with the raw materials crisis and why the 4 years plan was created. Its just not possible financially.

Seventh: If you´re in control of the four year plan then you´d also be in an excellent position to streamline army and naval production. Getting rid of waste there and introducing assembly line production. Which would influence things a lot more than just choosing airplanes.

Yep, that is something that will happen in the TL I'm planning. Huge differences would result. HUGE.

And if you manage all that competently then Hitler might see you as a serious danger to himself.

Depends of whether he's paying attention. Hitler really didn't follow details about anything unless it wasn't working. He did promote success during the war though after 1942. Its really hard to say honestly.

 

[johnboy]

He100

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/1940-ideal-fighter-luftwaffe-33345.html
There were some issues with the HE100. It wouldn't have been ready or optimized in time for the war and lack the ability to upgrade like the Me109 did over the course of the war. The HE112 had the same problem. And surface evaporation was the cause of a lot of the speed of the HE100, which didn't work in practice and then its removal compromised the design.

I had thought that the D1 version that appeared late 1939 had solved most of these issues. IT had abandoned the surface cooling system by that stage.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I had thought that the D1 version that appeared late 1939 had solved most of these issues. IT had abandoned the surface cooling system by that stage.

By then the Me109 has been cemented in production and the war just started, so its not the time to suddenly interrupt production to replace the Me109 with the HE100.
Perhaps though if the RLM works to boost DB production prewar then the given reason for not adopting the HE100, not enough DB engines for two types of fighters, would have allowed for the HE100 to be selected as a Me109 replacement. IMHO the engine issue was the major reason the FW190 was selected as the next generation fighter.

 

[BlairWitch749]

Fighters
39 me 109 e
40 me 109 e then f
41 fw 190 a with phase out of me-109 with inline engines shifted to fw190 to create d model
42-45 (piston engines) fw 190a for low altitude/eastern front; fw 190d for high altitude work in the west (jets) me 262 as multi role fighter

close support aircraft
39-43 hs 123 and ju 87
44-45 hs 129 (up engined)

fighter bombers
39-41 me-110
42-45 fw 190g/f

carrier fighters
39-40 me-109t
41-45 fw-190t

carrier bomber/torpedo aircraft
39-40 ju-87r
41-45 fw-190t

heavy bomber
39-40 modified do-19
41-45 do-119

maritime bomber/long range recon
39-40 modified do-19 (t) a variant with lighter armor and more fuel
41-45 do-119t

medium bomber
39 he-111 and ju-88
40-45 ju -88 (piston engine) 44-45 (jets) arado 234

laison
fielser storch

 

[Detlef]

OTL it was used in that capacity from 1943 after it was pretty much too dangerous to use in the daylight role, though it did soldier on in daylight into 1944. Dive bombing was stopped in daylight by 1943 and by night it was pure level bombing. Pretty much the Luftwaffe was trying to find a use for the outdated aircraft still on hand, when all airframes capable of flying were needed.

Well, assuming that your production plan is officially accepted wouldn´t it make more sense to retrain precious pilots to fly more modern airplanes?