Build it, and they will come (Asian Immigrationt to the US in the 19th century)

elder.wyrm

Banned
This isn't really a TL, or even a brainstorm topic for a TL, but the outcome of this topic will probably influence some future TL I will do someday.

As many people know, white Americans in the 19th century had a great tendency to judge people based on the color of their skin and their ethnic background. Sometimes this was just a cultural proclivity (WASP 'racism' against Catholic Irishmen), and sometimes there were more...mundane reasons behind this prejudice. One group which suffered from the latter were Asian, and especially Chinese, immigrant laborers. The stereotype that Chinese workers were extremely hard working, very frugal, and capable of putting up with terrible living and working conditions, genuinely scared many white workers who did not want to see their own living standards reduced if forced to compete with Chinese laborers.

The outcome of this was the Chinese Exclusion Act, and a penumbra of similar laws, treaties, and understandings that kept Korean, Japanese, and other East Asian immigrants out of the US.

However, and ignoring the means, what if these things had not come to pass? What if immigration from East Asia had been as free and open as immigration from Europe?

Just how many immigrants could we expect to come to America's western shore? What kind of alt-demographics would we have? Would US population in 2010 be more than the OTL ~310,000,000 souls? How much more?

How would a population outflow have effected history in East Asia in the 19th century? Arguably, the 'pressure release valve' of immigration to the Americas kept Europe more stable and less impoverished than would otherwise have been the case. Would a similar effect have been seen in East Asia? Could westernization/modernization have been easier to accomplish in China? Would the monarchy have survived?

East Asian history in the 19th century is one of my particular weak-spots. I know the broad narrative, but any of the specifics are as unknown to me as the history of Alpha Centauri between the 110th century BC and the modern day. Those with better knowledge (here's looking at you Hendryk), I invite you to come help me answer these questions.
 
If what I learned about my state is correct, Asians could become as much as 40% of California's population by the first World War. Though I doubt it would get that high, and later immigration to California would reduce this. I am interested in the broader implications of such policies as well.

Something that would be most interesting is a Japanese-majority Hawaii...
 

elder.wyrm

Banned
If what I learned about my state is correct, Asians could become as much as 40% of California's population by the first World War. Though I doubt it would get that high, and later immigration to California would reduce this. I am interested in the broader implications of such policies as well.

Something that would be most interesting is a Japanese-majority Hawaii...

Large pluralities or majorities of Asians in some states is what fascinates me so much about the scenario.

I'm genuinely curious how large numbers of Asians would effect politics, both state and Federal. Like I said before, I'm not familiar with Asian history, but as far as my limited understanding goes, Asia completely lacks a history of democratic politics on a large scale. Assimilating Asians in a Western, democratic polity would be an interesting process.
 
Something that would be most interesting is a Japanese-majority Hawaii...

the Japanese were the Largest group brought over during the Suger Plantation years.

the Majority came over in 1885, after Hawaii and Japan worked out a deal.
Intrestingly by 1893 about 70% of plantation workers were Japanese.

all of this is impressive, but then you need to remember the period.
Japan is Undergoing industrialization in the 1880s, causing unemployment, and the like.
Cheap labor for the Suger plantations to snap up.
they did have the option of returning to Japan after their contracts expired, but most of them decided to stay.
 
You could have an East Asian plurality in California, Oregon, Washington and maybe Nevada and Alaska, other than Hawaii. This won't last but would have interesting implications. If Asians do integrate well, could Philippines and/or Marianas be considered for statehood within the US?
WWII would also be interesting (if not butterflied away for the Pacific, but i think it's unlikely).
 
It's worth noting that it would probably also have a heavy influence on domestic politics throughout East Asia.

The region began muddling toward Western systems of government without any historical or cultural basis to work from. Essentially, they were modeling the institutions, but without a cultural consensus on how to act within them. Add millions of Chinese and Japanese (Koreans?) writing home over the course of generations or actually returning to the country, successful and wealthy....

It'll transform the modern history of the region.
 

elder.wyrm

Banned
It's worth noting that it would probably also have a heavy influence on domestic politics throughout East Asia.

The region began muddling toward Western systems of government without any historical or cultural basis to work from. Essentially, they were modeling the institutions, but without a cultural consensus on how to act within them. Add millions of Chinese and Japanese (Koreans?) writing home over the course of generations or actually returning to the country, successful and wealthy....

It'll transform the modern history of the region.

This is part of the reason the idea fascinates me so much. The other side of the coin -- How they will effect American politics -- is even somewhat less interesting.
 
I did an AH challenge with a similar premise a while ago. Some of the responses on that thread might be illuminating: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=93057

The Philippines would probably never become a state just because it's so huge (87 million people) and so far away.

I agree with that, Philippines will not become a US state because of vast distance, different cultures with mainland, and already huge population at that time in US standards. BTW, Philippines population is now exactly 100 million and the population growth was a result of lack of national population control in the Philippines. Had US stayed in the Philippines as Commonwealth entity, Philippines will just have 40 million probably.
 
There was a chance the Phillipines could become a U.S. state. There was. However, what I want to know is what happens when World War II comes around. Worse concentration camps, or does the Japanese lobby in the U.S. calm U.S.-Japanese tensions and prevent the oil embargo that essentially caused Pearl Harbor, or would there be Japanese in the country actively sabotaging the U.S. during the war?

You know, because an increase of Japanese immigrants mean that COULD ACTUALLY HAPPEN UNLIKE IN OTL. I can't believe OTL America actually thought that there was a chance of sabotage from them.

I've thought that if the C.S.A. became independent, the U.S. might encourage more immigration to protect itself, get more workers, and encourage earlier statehood to counter the nation. Or perhaps the British in Canada are a lot scarier, but I don't know how that would happen.
 
However, what I want to know is what happens when World War II comes around. Worse concentration camps, or does the Japanese lobby in the U.S. calm U.S.-Japanese tensions and prevent the oil embargo that essentially caused Pearl Harbor, or would there be Japanese in the country actively sabotaging the U.S. during the war?

You know, because an increase of Japanese immigrants mean that COULD ACTUALLY HAPPEN UNLIKE IN OTL. I can't believe OTL America actually thought that there was a chance of sabotage from them.

Because Obviously the Nisei would fall in with a country that they were never part of, and the Issei, some of who would be elderly at this point are really going to make a concious effort to screw over the nation they went to so they could build better lives. :rolleyes:
 

elder.wyrm

Banned
Because Obviously the Nisei would fall in with a country that they were never part of, and the Issei, some of who would be elderly at this point are really going to make a concious effort to screw over the nation they went to so they could build better lives. :rolleyes:

Not to mention the anachronistic aspect of there still being a WWII closely resembling that of OTL when you have a PoD in the 19th century leading to millions of East Asian immigrants to the US.
 
Not to mention the anachronistic aspect of there still being a WWII closely resembling that of OTL when you have a PoD in the 19th century leading to millions of East Asian immigrants to the US.

true.

I think the first problem is...The Chinese and Japanese were willing to work for lower wages than other laborers, and then they built up from there.

So part of the POD would involve that.

The second thing is, as I pointed out, Most of the Japanese came to Hawaii during the Industrialization of Japan.

so we would need....China, Korea and whomever isn't colonized to industrialize at a simular scale to Japan?

just a thought.
 
true.

I think the first problem is...The Chinese and Japanese were willing to work for lower wages than other laborers, and then they built up from there.

So part of the POD would involve that.

The second thing is, as I pointed out, Most of the Japanese came to Hawaii during the Industrialization of Japan.

so we would need....China, Korea and whomever isn't colonized to industrialize at a simular scale to Japan?

just a thought.

China and Korea certainly aren't going to modernize on the scale of Japan. A little while ago someone asked how to get China to "pull a Meiji". You can't "pull a Meiji", that's like asking Poland to "pull a Rome". It was an event tied to a certain people in a certain location with a certain history and certain "push" factors. Not happening anywhere else.
 
China and Korea certainly aren't going to modernize on the scale of Japan. A little while ago someone asked how to get China to "pull a Meiji". You can't "pull a Meiji", that's like asking Poland to "pull a Rome". It was an event tied to a certain people in a certain location with a certain history and certain "push" factors. Not happening anywhere else.

The question is "What must happen to allow Either China or Korea to experiance something simular to what Japan Underwent in the Meiji restoration?"
I never said they would have to "Pull a Meiji", I said "Simular to".

as we can see in the OP, there is no Limit to when the POD can be, therefore under the correct circumstances, China or Korea can Industrialize on a larger scale.
 
Is there a possibility of having some degree of East Asian immigration to Mexico before a similar Mexican-American war?

If the US acquires Asian communities already established and politically able, there might be enough influence there to limit official racism toward Asians in immigration policy.

To mix it up even further: Let's suppose Mexico gains some degree of Asian immigration such that they form signifigant proportions and community roots in at least Mexico's northern provinces; California, the Basin, Sonora, Chihuahua, etc.

The Texan war of independence rolls around, and its annexation by the US sparks the Mexican-American war. For hand-waving, butterfly-based reasons, the US in ITTL's Guadalupe Hidalgo takes a bit more of Mexico. Perhaps not the Tampico line, but at least a few of the Mexican states that OTL Mexico kept.

For cynical political reasons, the Spanish-speaking catholic Hispanic communities in the new US territories are suppressed by a combination of limited white protestant settlers and the already existing Asian communities in the ethnic political machines common to the 19th century US.

This experience, though gradually moderating for the hispanic population after the Civil War, upgrades Asians in American racial hierarchy to "close enough to white", and the political power of the Asian political machines in the new states (particularly in the Senate) supports a much more open door to further immigration than OTL.

Too cynically optimistic?
 

FDW

Banned
Large pluralities or majorities of Asians in some states is what fascinates me so much about the scenario.

I'm genuinely curious how large numbers of Asians would effect politics, both state and Federal. Like I said before, I'm not familiar with Asian history, but as far as my limited understanding goes, Asia completely lacks a history of democratic politics on a large scale. Assimilating Asians in a Western, democratic polity would be an interesting process.

Well, OTL in the US Asians tend to bloc-vote in favor of an asian candidate when one is running for elected office (This is why San Francisco, as Liberal as everyone know it is, still has an elected republican in office, and this principle only applies when one asian is in the race, have two asian running against one another in the same race for office and regular democratic rules take over again), this has played a big role in the politics of my home state, California. It plays a big role because asian-americans tend to be as hostile as latinos are toward the perceived immigration stance of the republican party and so they'll go Democrat by a 2 to 1 margin. This is especially big when you consider that Latinos and asians combined make up almost half the population of the state (Latinos make up 33% and asians make up 12%) so thus, you can see where California's Democratic majority comes from. As for integration, asians haven't really been all that different from european or latin american immigrants in terms of being able to integrate, it's just that asian tend to keep to themselves more from what I've seen. (And remember I live in San Francisco, where if the person you tripped over on MUNI five seconds ago isn't gay, he or she is probably asian)
 
As for integration, asians haven't really been all that different from european or latin american immigrants in terms of being able to integrate, it's just that asian tend to keep to themselves more from what I've seen. (And remember I live in San Francisco, where if the person you tripped over on MUNI five seconds ago isn't gay, he or she is probably asian)
Or very likely both.:D

A larger population of Asian immigrants will certainly help eliminate many of the stereotypes Asian Americans are subject to today. Integration from the point of view of Asians is similar to other immigrants, but to the majority of other Americans, Asians carry a stereotype of being foreign and unable to integrate which seems to be very deeply entrenched. Unlike white or black immigrants who have communities of the same race that are very much mainstream, most Asians and Asian communities Americans are exposed to through media and the like are designed to show off their foreignness.

Even for me as an Asian American the first time I met people whose family had immigrated five generations ago I was a little surprised. While I knew Asians had been immigrating to the US since before the Gold Rush, it was completely different to meet someone who was actually descended from one. Most of it has to do with the vast majority of the Asian population where I grew up being composed of recent immigrants.

About Asian voting tendencies, many of the first generation immigrants who have gotten US citizenship tend in my experience to vote Republican. At the very least, they are far more socially conservative than their kids which isn't unexpected.
 
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