BUF comes to power. What's the Relationship with the Nazis?

Like the title says. What happens, especially in regards to Germany, if the British Union of Fascists is able to come to power by the early-to-mid 1930s? Would the German and British and Italian fascists all ally and fight the democracies and the communists?

I was thinking of possible scenarios, and I came up with a vague one where Edward VIII take the throne earlier (no Mrs. Simpson in the picture), Oswald and the BUF take off with royal support, there is no Statute of Westminster, By the mid-to-late 1930s the BUF is firmly in control and has spin-offs in the Dominions that are pledging support for a stronger more united Empire, there is an alliance formed between Italy and Germany (the Berlin-Rome- London Triangle....the Triangular Powers). War with France, Poland. Then Russia. America remains nominally neutral. Oswald and Hitler speak of a grand "Anglo-German Union" dominating the world, set sights on the USA. War ultimately comes in the mid-to-late 1940s, USA looses (combination of home-grown fascists calling on America to join the Anglo-German Union, combined forces of Germany, British, and the Japanese-who aren't really allies with Germany/Britain, but use the war to take Hawaii, threaten the West Coast), and a nominally independent Fascist gov't takes the reigns. The country is later divided along regional lines (a process of gradual devolution, pushed for by Oswald and Hitler).

I know, really far-fetched, but the idea popped into my head a few days ago and it was at the very least a different take on World War II and so I figured I'd share.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on the scenario I came up with, or a more viable one based on the BUF coming to power in Britain around the same time of Hitler and Mussolini.
 
This is a doomsday Scenario.
with BUF in Parliament and giving the Prime Minister !

The Nazi have than try in OTL, under Von Ribbentrop
A non-aggression treaty and maybe a Alliance Between, The British Empire And the Thrid Reich,
In the Last Case there Would be British Troops involed in Invasion of Poland and USSR.
And British Support to Nazi industry and warmachine, with Oil and raw materials

While the USA stay neutral to that what Happen in Europe.
Until Empire of Japan attact them.
So far i know was the alliance between the Third Reich and Empire of Japan only Second Choice.
First was British Empire, but Lucky for us Von Ribbentrop screw that up.
 
Last edited:
Their relationship would be... Okay, probably the same between Germany and Spain during the war. Mosley wouldn't touch the war with a barge-pole, instead he'd focus on the Empire - though how much the Dominions would interact with him I can't be sure of. I agree that in the Dominions fascism would likely be popular, potentially in New Zealand and Australia the semi-fascist/fascist parties could win if given enough money and support from the BUF, however in Canada I don't think their fascist party would win.

With a neutral Britain I think fascism would certainly remain relatively appealing to the world, as one of the reasons fascism began to falter was the war - potentially helping the Silver Legion.

The issue of an Imperial Federation is an interesting one, much of the Empire would have no choice but to accept an internal free-trade agreement, though would the more independent Dominions? Certainly if Australia and New Zealand did elect fascists then they'd agree to the tariffs, South Africa and Canada are difficult to guess though. Canada, as it was unlikely to go fascist, wouldn't have that necessary ideological unity.

In South Africa I'm unsure how popular fascism was, though there seem to have been three major fascist parties - the Greyshirts, who were more racist but wanted to work with both English and Afrikaner speaking peoples, the Ossewabrandwag, which dealt only with the Afrikans, and the more minor 'New Order' which was led by Oswald Pirow - a man who became friends with Oswald Mosley. It's wholly likely that South Africa would be in favour of tariff reform if any of these people got into power.

And, before I write more, I realise that everything past the first paragraph had nothing to do with your question... Oops...
 
Mosley wouldn't touch the war with a barge-pole
Totally agree. I think he would make anti-bolshevist speeches etc but would want an armed-isolationist policy in Europe.

he'd focus on the Empire
IMHO His first priorities would be 'rebuilding' the UK economy and strengthening its armed forces. Part of the economy rebuild would undoubtedly include policies of firming up trade wih the Empire.
 

Kongzilla

Banned
Totally agree. I think he would make anti-bolshevist speeches etc but would want an armed-isolationist policy in Europe.


IMHO His first priorities would be 'rebuilding' the UK economy and strengthening its armed forces. Part of the economy rebuild would undoubtedly include policies of firming up trade wih the Empire.

Sounds good.
 
As you say, it's almost too far fetched to reliably speculate about. You need a very far back POD for the BUF to get remotely close to power. Their support IOTL never reached anything like that required.

Crucially, they never got the support of the establishment that Hitler got. 'The Junkers' famously backed him until it was too late because he could stop communism. In Britain, that threat was smaller and as such the Conservative Party and the aristocracy never had a reason to align itself with extremists. Edward VIII trying to singlehandedly get them into power would probably trigger an abdication crisis - it should be remembered that ten years before he met Wallis Simpson there was a hope in Whitehall that he would never be King or abdicate once there. Support for fascist revolutionaries (let us not forget the revolutionary nature of fascism) would be a perfect excuse to get rid of him.

A Mosley-led fascist Britain is almost impossible to achieve. If it had happened, other posters are right - Franco-esque pro-Hitler neutrality would be its foreign policy. No grand 'Channel Pact'.
 
Putting aside the difficulties with getting the BUF in power it is an interesting scenario.

I wonder if British neutrality is guaranteed whether Hitler would even pursue a Japanese Alliance at all since Japan essentially threaten's Britain's place in the Far East.

Also is British neutrality enough to see Russia fall? If so Mosley is going to want to have a very substantive rearmament program in place because if Hitler changes his mind on Britain there is now no country left on the continent to support them.
 
Mosley always made his foreign policy clear: turtle and build mine fields while the rest of the world burns. Interestingly enough, he always seemed open to the idea that Hitler might attack the British Empire (though he considered it extremely unlikely) and maintained that his policy of rearmenment would be enough to prepare for such an eventuality.

Certainly if Australia and New Zealand did elect fascists then they'd agree to the tariffs

The Australian Fascists officially parted company with Mosley over tariffs, in fact.
 
Last edited:
Totally agree. I think he would make anti-bolshevist speeches etc but would want an armed-isolationist policy in Europe.
Indeed, more a 'Fortress Britannia', as Mosley wanted to massively expand the British military, but supported isolationism.
IMHO His first priorities would be 'rebuilding' the UK economy and strengthening its armed forces. Part of the economy rebuild would undoubtedly include policies of firming up trade wih the Empire.
His plans for an Imperial Free Trade Area was a major part of his economic theory, as he wanted Britain to manufacture, whilst the Empire provided the raw materials and food that would be imported to Britain, whilst Britain would export the industries to the colonies. Though the massive expansion of the state and likely creation of 'Full Employment' would be a primary goal too.
As you say, it's almost too far fetched to reliably speculate about. You need a very far back POD for the BUF to get remotely close to power. Their support IOTL never reached anything like that required.

Crucially, they never got the support of the establishment that Hitler got. 'The Junkers' famously backed him until it was too late because he could stop communism. In Britain, that threat was smaller and as such the Conservative Party and the aristocracy never had a reason to align itself with extremists. Edward VIII trying to singlehandedly get them into power would probably trigger an abdication crisis - it should be remembered that ten years before he met Wallis Simpson there was a hope in Whitehall that he would never be King or abdicate once there. Support for fascist revolutionaries (let us not forget the revolutionary nature of fascism) would be a perfect excuse to get rid of him.
Getting Mosley into power isn't quite as hard as is initially thought. What you'd need to do is have Lord Rothermere not sell the Daily Mirror, so the BUF has another source of support. Also having Lord Beaverbrook and the Daily Express support the BUF would be very handy, IOTL Beaverbrook and Rothermere had worked together in two previous parties: the Anti-Waste League and the Empire Free Trade Crusade. Beaverbrook IOTL wasn't pro-fascism, but if ITTL he saw Mosley as the man who would bring about Imperial Free Trade then that would be a useful POD.

Another thing would be for the Olympia Rally fight to not break out, on top of this not having Rothermere withdraw his support due to the fights and his fears that a popular BUF would harm the Conservatives would have a massive impact.

(I had written a mini-TL after this, but then thought it'd bore and isn't the point of this thread... Oops again...)
 
Mosley always made his foreign policy clear: turtle and build mine fields while the rest of the world burns. Interestingly enough, he always seemed open to the idea that Hitler might attack the British Empire (though he considered it extremely unlikely) and maintained that his policy of rearmenment would be enough to prepare for such an eventuality.
Indeed, he also said that if the Germans did invade, then he'd be one of the first men to take up arms against the Nazi's.
The Australian Fascists officially parted company with Mosley over tariffs, in fact.
Oh really? I'd no-idea, though I suppose it's possible that, if the BUF gave money to the 'New Guard', then they could change their policy. Though how this would affect their support I don't know.
 
What you really need as PoD is a Mosley willing to work with the "old parties". Fascism in Britain could easily have flourished under the wing of the Conservative parties right-wing, and nearly did, but Mosley's refusal to court them and suicidal obsession with the working class vote alienated the "Rothermere Fascists".

Oh really? I'd no-idea, though I suppose it's possible that, if the BUF gave money to the 'New Guard', then they could change their policy. Though how this would affect their support I don't know.

Another interesting thing about Colonel Lang's involvement in Mosley's New Empire Union was that he claimed to speak for not only Australia, but also South Africa and New Zealand as well. We can easily deduce from that that no South Africans or New Zealanders were involved, as no records of a South African or New Zealand "New Guard" exists outside of his statements. ;)

This means the only real members of the New Empire Union left are the Canadian Union of Fascists, who had a double digit membership, and the Ulster Fascists, who were rejected by O'Duffy and the Blueshirts.
 
Last edited:
What you really need as PoD is a Mosley willing to work with the "old parties". Fascism in Britain could easily have flourished under the wing of the Conservative parties right-wing, and nearly did, but Mosley's refusal to court them and suicidal obsession with the working class vote alienated the "Rothermere Fascists".
Agreed, I usually go for the BUF winning a few seats in 1935, then the abdication crisis causes an election which leads to a massively hung Parliament. Then another election has to be called in which the BUF wins many seats, and then some Conservative & Labour MPs vote with the BUF to give Mosley as PM more powers to get through a political crisis.

Another interesting thing about Colonel Lang's involvement in Mosley's New Empire Union was that he claimed to speak for not only Australia, but also South Africa and New Zealand as well. We can easily deduce from that that no South Africans or New Zealanders were involved, as no records of a South African or New Zealand "New Guard" exists outside of his statements. ;)

This means the only real members of the New Empire Union left are the Canadian Union of Fascists, who had a double digit membership, and the Ulster Fascists, who were rejected by O'Duffy and the Blueshirts.
The New Zealanders did have a pretty large fascistparty, when compared to its overall population. But yes, I think the CUF had about 200 members or something?
 
The New Zealanders did have a pretty large fascistparty, when compared to its overall population. But yes, I think the CUF had about 200 members or something?

I haven't heard of any New Zealand party, what were they called? They certainly never made contact with the BUF.

There were 200 people at the CUF's meeting first, but by no means all of them were members. When the CUF held a congress at the same time as the Nazi National Unity Party, 30 people turned up, whereas 4,000 attended the National Unity Parties meeting.
 
Their relationship would be... Okay, probably the same between Germany and Spain during the war. Mosley wouldn't touch the war with a barge-pole, instead he'd focus on the Empire - though how much the Dominions would interact with him I can't be sure of. I agree that in the Dominions fascism would likely be popular, potentially in New Zealand and Australia the semi-fascist/fascist parties could win if given enough money and support from the BUF, however in Canada I don't think their fascist party would win.

With a neutral Britain I think fascism would certainly remain relatively appealing to the world, as one of the reasons fascism began to falter was the war - potentially helping the Silver Legion.

The issue of an Imperial Federation is an interesting one, much of the Empire would have no choice but to accept an internal free-trade agreement, though would the more independent Dominions? Certainly if Australia and New Zealand did elect fascists then they'd agree to the tariffs, South Africa and Canada are difficult to guess though. Canada, as it was unlikely to go fascist, wouldn't have that necessary ideological unity.

In South Africa I'm unsure how popular fascism was, though there seem to have been three major fascist parties - the Greyshirts, who were more racist but wanted to work with both English and Afrikaner speaking peoples, the Ossewabrandwag, which dealt only with the Afrikans, and the more minor 'New Order' which was led by Oswald Pirow - a man who became friends with Oswald Mosley. It's wholly likely that South Africa would be in favour of tariff reform if any of these people got into power.

And, before I write more, I realise that everything past the first paragraph had nothing to do with your question... Oops...

Indeed, more a 'Fortress Britannia', as Mosley wanted to massively expand the British military, but supported isolationism.

His plans for an Imperial Free Trade Area was a major part of his economic theory, as he wanted Britain to manufacture, whilst the Empire provided the raw materials and food that would be imported to Britain, whilst Britain would export the industries to the colonies. Though the massive expansion of the state and likely creation of 'Full Employment' would be a primary goal too.

Getting Mosley into power isn't quite as hard as is initially thought. What you'd need to do is have Lord Rothermere not sell the Daily Mirror, so the BUF has another source of support. Also having Lord Beaverbrook and the Daily Express support the BUF would be very handy, IOTL Beaverbrook and Rothermere had worked together in two previous parties: the Anti-Waste League and the Empire Free Trade Crusade. Beaverbrook IOTL wasn't pro-fascism, but if ITTL he saw Mosley as the man who would bring about Imperial Free Trade then that would be a useful POD.

Another thing would be for the Olympia Rally fight to not break out, on top of this not having Rothermere withdraw his support due to the fights and his fears that a popular BUF would harm the Conservatives would have a massive impact.

(I had written a mini-TL after this, but then thought it'd bore and isn't the point of this thread... Oops again...)

I see your point that, most likely, a BUF-led Britain would likely not get involved in Europe....unless maybe there was some sort of real or perceived threat from the USSR that gets Britain involved....I had the idea that the Reich would be the ground and air force, but would rely on the Royal Navy instead of building their own navy?

I do agree that the BUF's main chance of coming to power would be to get the support of the upper classes instead of the lower classes.

And as for the rest of the Empire and the growth/acceptance of fascism, as you point out obviously the colonies wouldn't really have a choice in the matter. I could definitely see South Africa and possibly Aus/NZ as well. Canada would definitely be the hard sell. It would probably require external support from the BUF to gain early traction, and as Mosley gains more power he can tighten the reigns and help fascist groups in the Dominions.
 
Top