Brython And Gaelic Isles

Greetings to the members and moderators of this fine forum. This is my first post. I'm so impressed by many of the things that I've read. I hope it's okay if I jump in the pool with this "what if" thread.

What if there was no immigration to the British Isles after the Celtic-speaking people arrived there? There were no Romans. There were no invasions of Germanic tribes. The Vikings never settled in even one place, nor did the Normans.

What would the Isles be like? It's limited to residents who speak Brythonic or Goidelic dialects. There would be contact with other countries, but the natives would remain "Celtic". There is no appreciable mixing with people of other ethnicities.

I'm interested in how the following would be affected by this alternate history. I would greatly appreciate any comments on one or more of these aspects of life.

.appearance of citizens (eyes, hair, grooming, size)
.appearance of villages
.personal (family practices, sexual mores)
.religion
.economy & agriculture
.political & legal institutions
.exploration (colonizing America?)
.trade & travel
.culture (clothes, food, art & literature, music)
.warfare

Any replies would be welcome, and please feel free to add to the above list.
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Do you intend this as a hypothetical exploration of cultures, or as a way to construct a plausible alternative history.

In general, but especially for the latter, this raises a lot of issues. For one thing, causing the british cultures to evolve in complete isolation just doesn't seem possible, barring the end of all life on continental europe. but even assuming no large-scale migrations or invasions, well, there will be contact with the outside world, even if only with cousins across the channel, say. And that opens up a lot of cans of worms, which unfortunately are rather hard to explore. Because, you see, if one just hand-waves away the Romans, Vikings, Saxons, and any other nation who might happen to wash up upon Britannia's shores, well, the entire history of western europe is irrecognizably altered.
 
Do you intend this as a hypothetical exploration of cultures, or as a way to construct a plausible alternative history.
Either one is fine. I mainly would like to explore the listed facets of the country. It would be fascinating to see how a "Celtic" country (or countries) would compare to other European nations if it wasn't dominated by outside forces, while still having normal contact with other countries. BTW, I meant to type British rather than Brython in the title of the thread (careless mistake).

In general, but especially for the latter, this raises a lot of issues. For one thing, causing the british cultures to evolve in complete isolation just doesn't seem possible, barring the end of all life on continental europe. but even assuming no large-scale migrations or invasions, well, there will be contact with the outside world, even if only with cousins across the channel, say. And that opens up a lot of cans of worms, which unfortunately are rather hard to explore. Because, you see, if one just hand-waves away the Romans, Vikings, Saxons, and any other nation who might happen to wash up upon Britannia's shores, well, the entire history of western europe is irrecognizably altered.

The Isles wouldn't be isolated. There would be trade and travel. There later would be some immigration to the Isles, but it wouldn't be enough to greatly alter the fabric of the country. The "Celtic" culture would remain intact. Most of the upheavals would be internal, not external, in this specific ATL. For instance, the Dalriada Scots would still go to war against the Picts. Invaders from Ireland would still sail to the coast of Wales, engaging in acts of piracy. It likely would be a case of which region takes control.
 
The Dalriad Scots go to war against the Picts due to southern pressures of Rome around 43-400 AD.

Then it gets really nasty infighting when you bring in the Church of Rome vs the Celtic Church of Iona in OTL.

If you remove the Roman invasions, the Picts aren't pressured by Romans, and they serve the initial purpose of a buffer between Kelts of Britton and Scots of Alba

Remove the Viking invasions, and there's even less pressure.

No pressure generally means no advancement, but you could have that from limited trade.

I don't see how it's feasible for it to last for very long in the 0AD to 1000AD timeframe.

For that matter, the Picts are mainland Celts, and are heavily modified by the time they arrive in Scotland (Alba/South Scotland) and the Scotii (already there) are from Ireland due to pressures from Nordic raiders (iirc).

Remove all the invasions/etc, and a) the picts aren't even there, and b) the shape of the isles are changed.

Now, do you count the Tuatha De Danaan as Celtic, or as invasion? If invasion, and not there, then the Firbolg and the (mind blanks, the other race in Ireland) grow together. If you keep the Danaan, do you keep the Milesians who invaded Britton then Ireland? They were either Byzantine or Greek or Carthaginian, depending on who you ask. They certainly weren't Celt.

If you *really* want to go far far back, the Celts themselves are TURKS from Anatolia who retreated into the mountains during one of *those* upheavals.


You probably don't want to go that far back. But you can't just Celts either... Which Celts do you keep and which do you toss? :)

If you get rid of all external pressure, you still have everything from scrawny, dark, darkhaired mediterranean types (think western Turks) to the, somewhat more rare, nordic/swedic/danish tall, stocky, blonde/blue eyed for looks, and a social culture that uses civil war to blend cultures (typical of Celts from the mainland too, and is witnessed in 300-900AD Scotland OTL)

I would certainly look forward to such a TL... but it might do better in ASB with a outrageous reason for the isolation. IIRC, I think I remember someone postulating a TL where Ireland & Britain were 10x further out in the Atlantic. That might be a similar concept?
 
The Dalriad Scots go to war against the Picts due to southern pressures of Rome around 43-400 AD.
The Romans would play no part in that region. In my scenario, they never even came to the Isles.

Then it gets really nasty infighting when you bring in the Church of Rome vs the Celtic Church of Iona in OTL.
The Isles would keep the Celtic Church. In fact, it may be a huge branch of Christianity, like Catholic and Orthodox.

If you remove the Roman invasions, the Picts aren't pressured by Romans, and they serve the initial purpose of a buffer between Kelts of Britton and Scots of Alba
The Scots wouldn't yet be in Scotland when the Picts are a nation unto themselves, but I can see how buffer zones could play roles in some regions. It's possible that there could be a non-violent confederation of Picts and Scots in ATL.

Remove the Viking invasions, and there's even less pressure.
There's always pressure when it comes to warring Celtic tribes. That's not to say that some major Viking expeditions couldn't be repulsed along the way.

No pressure generally means no advancement, but you could have that from limited trade.
There would be trade and travel. I think that the Isles may even advance more quickly with fewer outside threats.

I don't see how it's feasible for it to last for very long in the 0AD to 1000AD timeframe.
OTOH, it may transform into an ever bigger center of culture and learning. Irish monasteries may give birth to something of a Dark Ages Enlightenment.

For that matter, the Picts are mainland Celts, and are heavily modified by the time they arrive in Scotland (Alba/South Scotland) and the Scotii (already there) are from Ireland due to pressures from Nordic raiders (iirc).
There are different opinions on the origins of the Picts. The settled in the northeast of Scotland before the Scots arrived from Dalriada. They had more problems with other northern Irish groups before they came to Scotland. Maybe they and the Picts could fight against Vikings in the scenario.
 
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