Brooke in Charge of the British Expeditionary Force?

One of the criticisms of Field Marshal the Lord Gort, aside from decamping to France when Chief of the Imperial General Staff (CIGS) and leaving his deputy Massy back in London to try and mind the shop, was that as well as commanding the British Expeditionary Force (BEF) he also had to handle relations with the French plus stay in contact with London. Now the most logical thing to have done would have been for him to stay back in the UK and delegate command to a subordinate officer but if not that the next best thing would seem to be to split the duties so that Gort handled the most senior issues whilst another officer actually commanded the BEF.

So who would be a suitable candidate? Looking at the three corps commanders - Barker, Brooke and Adam - they all appear on the face of it to be of broadly the same age and seniority, would Brooke have stood a decent chance of getting a bump up to command the whole BEF if the position was open do people think? He was made commander of the Second Expeditionary Force, albeit only a reinforced division, that was sent back to France which was meant to form the core of a new BEF certainly suggests he was trusted. If Brooke becomes overall commander that in turn then leaves the spot commanding II Corp open. Montgomery was put in charge of it during the evacuation of the continent when Brooke was called back to the UK in our timeline which is again suggestive that he was considered sound, but the question then becomes how much of that was previous reputation and how much from what he had achieved during the recently fighting and being on-hand at the time. Or would someone else have likely been slotted in to fill the vacancy?
 
Definitely Brooke with Monty moving up to command the II Corps in his absence

Alan Brooke spoke fluent French (he was born there dontchaknow) and had been the first commander of the 'Mobile Division' which later became the 1st Armoured Division

Perfect choice IMO
 
At the time I suspect Alexander would have got command of the Corps not Montgomery - Alexander took over from Barker in charge of the Dunkirk rearguard.
 
At the time I suspect Alexander would have got command of the Corps not Montgomery - Alexander took over from Barker in charge of the Dunkirk rearguard.

Probably a better choice yes!

But wasn't he busy elsewhere at the the time?

I would just like to add that Field Marshal the Lord Gort probably made one of the most courageous and influential decisions of the war in ordering the BEF to collapse on Dunkirk and he made it in the face of contrary orders from his Government and hierarchy.

Others might have made the same decision but we will never know.
 
I don't think Monty was senior enough at that time. He was new as commander of 3rd division.

I think Brooke noticed Monty during the retreat. Starting to see that he was good at just getting things done the right way first time.

Dill might have been first choice instead of Brooke

Ivan
 
Brooke was more than capable of doing a fine job, but there's an elephant in the room - he and Gort disliked and distrusted one another. So why would Gort hand over command to a subordinate who thinks he's an idiot?
 
Well I had been considering replacing Gort with someone else as CIGS, the only problem being that the other candidates were Wavell and Dill - if Wavell being picked it precludes his appointment as Commander-in-Chief Middle East Command and Dill having a poor relationship with Churchill. Looking back at some older posts it seems the French expressed a preference for Dill over Gort as commander of the BEF. The easiest solution, although I'm not too sure how viable it is for the time, is for Hore-Belisha as Secretary of State for War to intervene.
 
Well I had been considering replacing Gort with someone else as CIGS, the only problem being that the other candidates were Wavell and Dill - if Wavell being picked it precludes his appointment as Commander-in-Chief Middle East Command and Dill having a poor relationship with Churchill. Looking back at some older posts it seems the French expressed a preference for Dill over Gort as commander of the BEF. The easiest solution, although I'm not too sure how viable it is for the time, is for Hore-Belisha as Secretary of State for War to intervene.

Gen Ironsides was CIGs until the end of May not Gort

He though hated the French and did not trust them.

He was certainly not impressed when he arrived at Gen. Billotte's HQ when he found the French General utterly defeated and slumped listlessly in a chair - the man had stopped issuing orders to the combined forces he was supposed to be commanding.

Ironsides getting no response from the man physically picked him up by his jacket and shook him - but the episode allowed him to back Gorts later decision to evacuate the BEF.

But probably not the right man for the position of OC BEF (And Ironsides did not think he was the right man for for CIGS either)

They should have sent him to the Far east to box people ears - he would have made people cry - but maybe they would have started to pour concrete and do stuff.

Hmm There is a POD in that.

But if he goes to the Far east earlier as a 'Kicker of Backsides' this might free up Wavell?
 
IMOH Gort seems to get a lot of criticism which (apart from his peculiar command structure which left him out of touch and hard to find during the campaign) is hard to justify.

The BEF of 1940 is too small and deficient in training for modern war with inadequate supplies of modern weapons. It is also in the wrong place to have a decisive impact on the campaign. Whoever is in command wont change these facts. The only thing a different BEF commander might have done would be to pointedly ask the French where was the strategic reserve before the shit hit the fan in May and after checking Gamlin's uniform to see who's side he's on having the mother of all hissy fits. However with the British the junior partner on land there is no guarantee of this as not rocking the boat was the order of the day OTL.
 
It's all a bit complicated. Gort was CIGS until September 1939 and then became CinC of the BEF, based on... well, it's all a bit complicated, as I said. Apparently there were three people who could have been CinC of the BEF, before Gort finally got the position. So - who would Hoare-Belisha and Gort have picked if a sane strategy had been adhered to in the case of leaving the CIGS in place at the start of a major war? Sad to say, probably not Brooke, which is a shame as the man was very, very, good. Ironside? Dill? I would love to say the latter, as the man was a very gifted general.
 
It's all a bit complicated. Gort was CIGS until September 1939 and then became CinC of the BEF, based on... well, it's all a bit complicated, as I said. Apparently there were three people who could have been CinC of the BEF, before Gort finally got the position. So - who would Hoare-Belisha and Gort have picked if a sane strategy had been adhered to in the case of leaving the CIGS in place at the start of a major war? Sad to say, probably not Brooke, which is a shame as the man was very, very, good. Ironside? Dill? I would love to say the latter, as the man was a very gifted general.

Cannot be Ironsides - he would make the French Commanders cry too much (although......maybe that would be a good thing).

Dill would be the better choice - and keep Gort as CIGs

Damn Winston for side lining these men Gort, Dill and Ironsides just because he disagreed with them - I'm sure they would have done a better job than Generals like Percival
 
...

Damn Winston for side lining these men Gort, Dill and Ironsides just because he disagreed with them - I'm sure they would have done a better job than Generals like Percival

Careful what you ask for... As CIGS Dill had staff officers writing up plans for invading France in 1942, for rearming the Vichy French Army, & other things considered risque' . As I understand he was skeptical of the idea of stratigic bombing as a war winner & would not have supported Harris's plans. Later in 1942/43 he favored the US ideas on invading France earlier rather than later.
 

Driftless

Donor
Wasn't Dill's greatest strength as diplolmat/soldier? Generals Dill and Marshall had a great working relationship. Of course, that would be further down the road for thes discussion here.

Also, didn't Wavell's scholarly nature grate on Churchill?
 
As I understand it Wavell was taciturn to the extreme, Churchill needed people to argue back.
 
IMOH Gort seems to get a lot of criticism which (apart from his peculiar command structure which left him out of touch and hard to find during the campaign) is hard to justify.

The BEF of 1940 is too small and deficient in training for modern war with inadequate supplies of modern weapons. It is also in the wrong place to have a decisive impact on the campaign. Whoever is in command wont change these facts. The only thing a different BEF commander might have done would be to pointedly ask the French where was the strategic reserve before the shit hit the fan in May and after checking Gamelin's uniform to see who's side he's on having the mother of all hissy fits. However with the British the junior partner on land there is no guarantee of this as not rocking the boat was the order of the day OTL.

This seems about right to me.

Was Gort the best possible commander Britain could have given the BEF to? No, not really. But would any other commander have done much better given the force, restrictions and strategy that was given him? Probably not.
 
Careful what you ask for... As CIGS Dill had staff officers writing up plans for invading France in 1942, for rearming the Vichy French Army, & other things considered risque' . As I understand he was skeptical of the idea of stratigic bombing as a war winner & would not have supported Harris's plans. Later in 1942/43 he favored the US ideas on invading France earlier rather than later.

Which is probably why he and Winston fell out

Winston wanted the 'Soft Underbelly' Approch as he thought it would save lives rather than the Direct Approch

I can appreciate Winstons desire but he was wrong
 
One can always wonder if Brooke had been given the command in its entirety from the word go.

The question always raised is: Was Brooke defeatist or realist?

Ivan
 
Which is probably why he and Winston fell out

Winston wanted the 'Soft Underbelly' Approch as he thought it would save lives rather than the Direct Approch

I can appreciate Winstons desire but he was wrong

Given that the OTL Normandy was a closely run thing and the Italy theater badly run, both Churchill and Dill were wrong.
 
Top