Bronze age Americans

[rewster]

I strongly disagree. What few places on earth? Having read quite a bit on medieval Europe most scolars appear to hold the belief that quite a large part of the diet during those times were made up of beef of different kinds. Denmark actually exported lots of cattle, hides and horns during medieval times. Peoples don't usually tend to let the beef rot when clearing the animal of its hide.
Well Tacitus told the romans that the Germans sustained themselves on dairy products, but that is a story.

Do you disagree with the whole post, or that sentence? I'll assume just the sentence. Maybe "few places on earth" was overstated. However, I disagree that the diet of medieval Europe, as a whole, contained large quantities of beef. The mediterranean region isn't really excellent for raising cattle, and until the late Middle Ages northern Europe was heavily forested. As forests were cleared for pasture, Northern Europe began producing a lot of cattle, sure. However, sheep and pigs were favored in the north and south of Europe, respectively, over cattle for quite a long time because they were more efficient at converting forage into meat.

Certainly beef was consumed, but milk production (like sheep and pigs) is more efficient than beef production at feeding the populace, so unless you have few people and lots of land, it makes sense to get the most out of a cow before you kill it for beef (e.g. use it as an ox or a dairy cow, depending on its sex).

 

[arctic warrior]

Do you disagree with the whole post, or that sentence? I'll assume just the sentence. Maybe "few places on earth" was overstated. However, I disagree that the diet of medieval Europe, as a whole, contained large quantities of beef. The mediterranean region isn't really excellent for raising cattle, and until the late Middle Ages northern Europe was heavily forested. As forests were cleared for pasture, Northern Europe began producing a lot of cattle, sure. However, sheep and pigs were favored in the north and south of Europe, respectively, over cattle for quite a long time because they were more efficient at converting forage into meat.

Certainly beef was consumed, but milk production (like sheep and pigs) is more efficient than beef production at feeding the populace, so unless you have few people and lots of land, it makes sense to get the most out of a cow before you kill it for beef (e.g. use it as an ox or a dairy cow, depending on its sex).

I disagree on the post, as I wrote from early medieval times Jutland was an exporter of cattle, hides and horn. Somebody ate what had been in the hides and under the horns and european diet did for a large part consist of, allright not only beef, meat. The idea of peoples sustaining a living on dairy products were made up by Tacitus et al.

 

[Michael B]

The idea of peoples sustaining a living on dairy products were made up by Tacitus et al.

Not correct. Viking diet consisted very much on diary products.

Certainly beef was consumed, but milk production (like sheep and pigs) is more efficient than beef production at feeding the populace, so unless you have few people and lots of land, it makes sense to get the most out of a cow before you kill it for beef (e.g. use it as an ox or a dairy cow, depending on its sex).

This is absolutely correct. Even before today's hyper output milk cows, yield of milk to beef is at least double.

It is also worth noting that shortage of winter fodder restricted the number of beasts that Europeans could house over the winter. Hence a mass slaughter and salting in the autumn.

 

[rewster]

I disagree on the post, as I wrote from early medieval times Jutland was an exporter of cattle, hides and horn. Somebody ate what had been in the hides and under the horns and european diet did for a large part consist of, allright not only beef, meat. The idea of peoples sustaining a living on dairy products were made up by Tacitus et al.

Well, I never said they lived on dairy products... just that that was a primary use of cattle. They lived on everything from wheat to turnips to pork to cheese. And northern europe may have been one of those places with lots of land and comparitively fewer people, especially after the Plague. "Beef breeds" of cattle didn't arise for the most part until around the 17th century, AFAIK. Before that, breeds were dual purpose, meaning they were certainly eaten at end of life unless diseased, but they also most likely had a working life as well.

 

[rewster]

May I suggest replacing the Bison with Caribou? As far as I know, they are just Reindeer. Highly domesticable, breedable, and food efficient. Useful as draft animals.

It shouldn't be too hard to breed them for a different climate as they diffuse down North America, and if you want them in the Andes, either the northern breed or reacclimatising should do.

Interesting idea... though "Highly domesticable" is questionable. As far as I know they are considered "semi-domesticated" even today, because they are not bred in captivity. Still, they are quite tamable, and useful. How large is the North American caribou? As large as the Siberian, or more like the Scandinavian variety? They supposedly ride reindeer in Siberia...

 

[Tom Veil]

European disease will still decimate these civilizations, and having them concentrated in cities will make it easier to take them out all at once.

I disagree. According to Jared Diamond, the presence of domesticated mammals as well as towns would mean that Native Americans would have livestock diseases, and therefore would have their immune systems "turned on" to viral infection. In OTL, they were pretty much turned off, and only used for repairing wounds. So they would die at slightly lower rates than in OTL, but more importantly, the Europeans would be dying at the exact same rate from the diseases that would be unique to the Americans.

 

[Umbral]

Um...I don't think immune systems work like that.

If they did have livestock diseases from an early time, they may have developed more genetic variety in their immune systems. Which might have allowed a faster bounceback.

 

[Tom Veil]

Um...I don't think immune systems work like that.

If they did have livestock diseases from an early time, they may have developed more genetic variety in their immune systems. Which might have allowed a faster bounceback.

Immune systems work by biochemical recognition feedback systems that are best described as "learning." If an immune system has no experience with a class of pathogens, it delays both the process of recognizing the pathogen as foreign, and of locating the pathogen.

Native Americans, pre-1492, lived in environments that were missing huge classes of pathogens, so their immune systems had no learned responses, only the innate responses(and also, as a minor but relevant matter, lacked some genetic variations that Eurasians and Africans had developed). That left them more exposed than Europeans to the same diseases.

 

[Umbral]

A much better way of putting it I prefer the phrase "evolutionary feedback" for the immune responses, but that is just me.

 

[Michael B]

Interesting idea... though "Highly domesticable" is questionable. As far as I know they are considered "semi-domesticated" even today, because they are not bred in captivity. Still, they are quite tamable, and useful. How large is the North American caribou? As large as the Siberian, or more like the Scandinavian variety? They supposedly ride reindeer in Siberia...

Absolutely right. Male reindeer usually live apart from the herd in a solitary existence, not the sort of behaviour of a domesticated animal.

 

[Dave Howery]

IIRC, caribou are the same species as European reindeer, but they have completely different social patterns and are not domesticable... if they were, the natives would have done so... it's not the only case of 'same species, different behavior"... NA wolves have never turned maneater, unlike their European cousins... NA moose are bigger and meaner than their European relatives and can't be tamed even a little, whereas the ones in Russia were tamed...

 

[rewster]

What about the tapir? I've seen past threads playing with the idea of Polynesians bringing pigs over, providing a needed protein source to the Americas... but the tapir was right there already, in Brazil. It's no horse, but it could probably make a good substitute for the pig.

EDIT Just realized it was actually mentioned in this thread.

 

[Tom Veil]

Tapir suffer from a lot of problems that make them difficult to domesticate -- a tendency to run away, nocturnal/twilight schedules, etc.

Tapir were first bred in capitivity by zookeepers, and that's almost always an indication that they would never have been economical to herd.

Although Ted Turner's bison experiment might put a small, high-tech chink in the theory, generally Jared Diamond is correct that if an animal can be domesticated, it already has been.

 

[Umbral]

Interesting idea... though "Highly domesticable" is questionable. As far as I know they are considered "semi-domesticated" even today, because they are not bred in captivity. Still, they are quite tamable, and useful. How large is the North American caribou? As large as the Siberian, or more like the Scandinavian variety? They supposedly ride reindeer in Siberia...

They can easily be bred in captivity, as a number of zoos have demonstrated. They are not normally kept in captivity, though, for practical reasons. People who make a living from their Reindeer own vast herds numbering in the thousands. Since they are quite capable of living off the land and being herded, keeping such numbers inside and supplying them with food would be a colossal waste of effort.

The male Caribou is larger than the male Reindeer, but the females are about the same size. Reindeer are more stout, and this has been attributed to some breeding for use as a pack and draft animal.

Absolutely right. Male reindeer usually live apart from the herd in a solitary existence, not the sort of behaviour of a domesticated animal.

Not quite. Reindeer are extremely gregarious. The migrate in vast heards that can number thousands, or even tens of thousand animals. Outside of migrations or mating season, they do break up into smaller groups, with the females and youngsters forming common groups. The males tend to form groups of their own.
A quick picture search on google shows groups of Reindeer with multiple males and females, both in mating season and outside of it.

IIRC, caribou are the same species as European reindeer, but they have completely different social patterns and are not domesticable... if they were, the natives would have done so

I did some reading on it tonight. Caribou and Reindeer are the same species. Is is believed that all Reindeer are descended for the same heard of Caribou that was originally domesticated, over 10 000 years ago.
Some sources refer to "vast behavioral differences" without specifying. Others state that the behavioral difference is that Caribou are somewhat less social, and not tamable.

Caribou also do not make a mess of my garden, but I suspect this is more due to distance than inclination.

Attempts have been made to domesticate Caribou, but have failed. It was noted, though, that very little interest was exhibited in the domestication.

It therefore seems to me that the Caribou is identical to the root stock that the Reindeer was domesticated from.

Like the horse, the domestication seems to have been a low-probablity incident which happened only once. The Reindeer root population was likly as hard to tame as the Caribou.

Therefore there doesn't seem to be any intrinsic reason why the domestication could not have happened in North America as well.

Note also that the University of Alaska cites eviednce of domestic Reindeer as far back as 8 000 BC, around Lake Baikal. Which means we are not terribly far away in time and location to the last Beringa population movement into North America.

 

[Dave Howery]

Therefore there doesn't seem to be any intrinsic reason why the domestication could not have happened in North America as well.

Note also that the University of Alaska cites eviednce of domestic Reindeer as far back as 8 000 BC, around Lake Baikal. Which means we are not terribly far away in time and location to the last Beringa population movement into North America.

these seem contradictory to me... if there was no intrinisc reason the domestication couldn't have happened in NA, it should have happened, especially if there were reindeer herding peoples in Siberia that long ago. The fact that caribou weren't domesticated is a pretty good indicator that they aren't capable of it...

 

[Umbral]

these seem contradictory to me... if there was no intrinisc reason the domestication couldn't have happened in NA, it should have happened, especially if there were reindeer herding peoples in Siberia that long ago. The fact that caribou weren't domesticated is a pretty good indicator that they aren't capable of it...

It is not contradictory if you note the bit about it being a low-probablility event. In other words, the fact that something could happen does not mean that it will.

Note also that Reindeer seem to be basically domesticated Caribou, so they are not incapable of it. Just difficult. Trying to redomesticate another batch of Caribou means running through centuries of breeding again, which is a bit of a wasted effort, as the Reinsdeer is an available population where all that work has already been done.

 

[Tom Veil]

Alright. Where are the AH.com Lapplanders when we need them?

 

[Umbral]

Here. Borderline Lappland at any rate.