Bronze age Americans
- Thread starter Zor
- Start date
As a matter of fact, since I’m Peruvian, I’m perfectly aware that the Incas didn’t all live in mountain peaks. But the bulk of the population did live between 500 and 3500 m above sea level. As for the coast, in addition to being very narrow (between 7 and 18 Km in the north central part and even narrower south of Paracas) most of it is desert, with the exception of the fluvial valleys. They receive practically no rain whatsoever, and all the water comes from the short, narrow rivers that flow from the Andes. They could support largish populations, but by supplementing their diet with fishing (the Peruvian sea is one of the richest, if not the richest, in fish in the world), and great irrigation systems. Nobody, in all history, has been stupid enough to try to use the area as a cattle raising region.
Bullshit. The Incas stopped growing because they’d reached the limits of the civilized world. That’s why their last expansion was northward. The Incas were interested in conquering civilized, productive regions. The pampas were inhabited at the time by semi nomads with no cities or taxable surpluses. That’s why they didn’t move further south into present day Argentina and Chile. The araucanos and mapuches were primitive semi nomads that weren’t cost effective to conquer. Civilizing them would’ve been more effort that the region was worth. So the Incas turned north.
If the Spaniards hadn’t come, as you’ve mentioned, Huayna Capac would’ve consolidated the incorporation of the northern regions into the Empire, as he was doing at the time the smallpox killed him, by taking wives from the local aristocracies. As a matter of fact a northern capital was in the process of being built, called Tumibamba, in a valley that was as close a replica as they could find to the one where Cuzco was located in. This became necessary because the empire had gotten to big to administer efficiently from Cuzco (an analogy would be the making of Byzantium into an eastern capital for the Roman Empire). If, after that process was finished, the Incas chose to expand; their most likely target would’ve being the Chibchas, in present day Colombia and Venezuela.
The whole of the Inca economy was built around the management of the different altitudinal floors, producing different crops in different altitudes then redistributing them, to produce a more balanced diet for the population. That’s why they always preferred to stick to the mountainous regions, like the ones the Chibcha lived in. It was the unique region where their entire culture had evolved over thousands of years. The only way to make them come out of there was with a very tempting target to sink their teeth into. That’s what happened when they went into the coast and conquered the Chimu. If you want to get the Incas into the pampas, you’ll need to put a really juicy kingdom there for them to conquer. Otherwise, I just don’t see them deciding to move into a region that was completely alien to them geographically, where a lot of their usual crops wouldn’t do well, and where their agricultural technology developed over thousands of years wouldn’t work, and where they would have to start building from scratch.
NapoleonXIV
Banned
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But would the Incas even exist here? If the Amerinds in North Am had bovison, bronze and big boats couldn't they be the ones settling the pampas, millenia before the Inca existed?
But would the Incas even exist here? If the Amerinds in North Am had bovison, bronze and big boats couldn't they be the ones settling the pampas, millenia before the Inca existed?
Keenir
Banned
and if they had wings, they could fly to the Moon.
why would the Native Americans colonize the Pampas? unlike Europe, they'd believe that their continent was special. (wasn't N.America the "Great Turtle"? as opposed to Europe having no special status*)
* = Christendom's center was the Holy Land, so Europe didn't even have that distinction.
out of 2,000+ years of settled history, not one of the Andean civilizations seems to have spread to the Pampas.
Except of course for this guy's grandfather.
Apparently there are enough cattle to have issues with Foot and Mouth Disease as well.
No, not really...
Thank you, you just made my point for me. The Inca did have places left to conquer... to the north. They may not have done it right away, but my point was they hadn't necessarily stopped growing when they had the stoppage of growth forced upon them.
I agree. The Inca wouldn't do that. They'd expand northward, like you said.
Not one of the Andean civilizations had "bovison" either. And there are going to be a lot of butterflies caused by the domestication of bison. There may not be a "Great Turtle" myth (which I don't think was universal anyway... isn't it an Iroquois myth?).and if they had wings, they could fly to the Moon.
why would the Native Americans colonize the Pampas? unlike Europe, they'd believe that their continent was special. (wasn't N.America the "Great Turtle"? as opposed to Europe having no special status*)
* = Christendom's center was the Holy Land, so Europe didn't even have that distinction.
out of 2,000+ years of settled history, not one of the Andean civilizations seems to have spread to the Pampas.
Besides, Europe isn't even a continent, so of course it isn't special.
The bison thing is just silly. They'd consume more resources than they generated as draft animals, IMO. I do beleive that they could be farmed, with a small herd brought in for winter. Get enough fodder for them, to see you through winter.
The Inca, on a side note, also held one of the best guano areas in the world. It certainly help them having a corner on, argueably, the most important components in gunpowder.( Rather like the," Guns of Tawantisuya" ( sorry if I butchered that) Great Timeline.
At any rate I'm all for the Americas getting a chance to develop as they should have.
The Inca, on a side note, also held one of the best guano areas in the world. It certainly help them having a corner on, argueably, the most important components in gunpowder.( Rather like the," Guns of Tawantisuya" ( sorry if I butchered that) Great Timeline.
At any rate I'm all for the Americas getting a chance to develop as they should have.
I don't know if they could be domesticated. Judging by the fact that they weren't, most likely no, they couldn't. But if their disposition was slightly different, then the size issue is no reason for them not to be used as draft animals. Aurochs were much larger than cattle are now... probably about the same size as bison, actually.
Burton K Wheeler
Moderator
The whole bison domestication argument aside, I'm afraid the "Inca bison" issue is a bit of a red herring. Besides the astronomic improbability of cattle being imported from the Great Plains to the Andean plateaus, there would be no economical way to raise them at altitude.
If we assume the domesticated bison (bovison) in the Andes is impossible, then what we do see is a large market for food there.
North America will have large bison ranges, which are necessarily fairly remote. So the cities that arise will depend on preserved meat, smoked, and salted. They should be ready to export it fairly soon, and furthermore, their armies could be well supplied.
North America will have large bison ranges, which are necessarily fairly remote. So the cities that arise will depend on preserved meat, smoked, and salted. They should be ready to export it fairly soon, and furthermore, their armies could be well supplied.
When I said that nobody used the region for growing cattle, I was talking about the the Coast. That company you linked to is located in Arequipa, in the mountains. As a matter of fact, in some points the coast of the department of Arequipa is less than a Km wide. Of course today there're some areas of Peru were they raise cows and sheep. The Spaniards coulnd't live without their meat. But it is in no way near the quantity or quality as the beef produced in Argentina or Brasil. Beef isn't exactly cheap in this country.
I've realized that I expressed myself badly. What I meant to say was that the Incas had reached the limits of continous civilization. As I said, outside of the borders of the Empire, the Chibchas were the only civilized people left. But between them and the northern edges of the Empire there was a lot of difficult terrain. I can not tell if the Incas would've tried to move in on them thru all that. Maybe after another century, with the Empire fully consolidated, all tge latest conquests digested and the administration from Tumibamba up and running.
They couldn't possibly grow beyond the point they reached without digesting what they already had. They had a long way ahead of them asimilating the conquered peoples. The main reason that the Spaniards were able to destroy the Empire so easily was because a lot of its peoples didn't think of themselves as Incas, they thought of themself as chancas, chinchas, chachapoyas, and so on and so on. The Incas needed time to asimilate all those peoples before even consider moving in on somebody else. They needed another century, at least.
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Sigh. I guess I forgot that sea level in South America is actually at 10,000 feet.
I suppose in Europe cattle walked to Crete, in Asia the Himalayas are at sea level, and there have never been any reasons to breed cattle for different environments.
Main population centers of the Incan empire were in the Andes, as is stated above. In many cases in heights were bisons would have great problems to catch breath.
Crete is only let's say 200 km from Turkey or Greece. Peru is way longer from the north. On land, you'd face jungle. A very good barrier for any cattle due to diseases.
In Eurasia, they have no cattle on the Himalaya on comparable height as the Andes, they have Yaks. And they had no problem in using the plains north of Himalaya to go from China to Europe with every domesticated animal they want. And they had more time to do so. Breeding animals for different purposes needed a lot of time.
Anyway, of course there would be solutions for this. As is discussed above, domesticating bisons would be extremely difficult, maybe even impossible. So you would need a POD that alters the evolution of an animal. Given such a POD, you could easily get them whatever you want: Giant Running birds for Riding, Horses for Plowing, Mammoths for war, Tiny bisons as pet-animals for the kids, giant guineapigs that could feed a whole village...;-)
Or you could take what you already have: Lamas. Already domesticated there. So what if the Lama would be domesticated earlier and major success in breeding had occured very early and led to a variety of different lamas for all purposes and regions? And then let Lamas spread to the north.
Additionally, how about Polynesians bringing Pigs and Dogs?
Well, I understand the difficulties presented by trying to raise cattle in your country. I'm just trying to say that it is possible, if something cattle-like existed from antiquity, that some of these animals could find their way into Peru and beyond.
Well, now I understand what you are saying. Indeed they were at a stopping point after a long expansion phase. I was merely trying to imply that eventually, they may have attempted to grow again, to the North, had the Spanish not destroyed their civilization.
Keenir
Banned
Maybe, if they're just used for prestige purposes....but they can't be used to feed the Incan Empire. (it would be like the entire US getting all its beef from Long Island and Key West).
and they might have colonized the Galapagos - it's sitting right there, after all.
I think it would be somewhere in between... very few places on earth used cattle to feed the population prior to the modern era... and even today, I can't think of a country that could feed itself on the beef it produces alone. The main uses for cattle were not food, but rather milk, and of course draft power. Beef was a secondary use, mainly from the butchering of cows that were too old or sick to work or produce milk. I suspect the Peruvians wouldn't even bother with milk production, so you'd basically have something akin to the ox.
Yes, and all that potential...and they might have colonized the Galapagos - it's sitting right there, after all.
Though if they did go there, they would immediately discover the theory of evolution, and gain two technological advances in a single turn.
Burton K Wheeler
Moderator
Yes, and all that potential...
Though if they did go there, they would immediately discover the theory of evolution, and gain two technological advances in a single turn.
Don't be silly. You can't build Darwin's Voyage until after you discover Railroad.
May I suggest replacing the Bison with Caribou? As far as I know, they are just Reindeer. Highly domesticable, breedable, and food efficient. Useful as draft animals.
It shouldn't be too hard to breed them for a different climate as they diffuse down North America, and if you want them in the Andes, either the northern breed or reacclimatising should do.
I strongly disagree. What few places on earth? Having read quite a bit on medieval Europe most scolars appear to hold the belief that quite a large part of the diet during those times were made up of beef of different kinds. Denmark actually exported lots of cattle, hides and horns during medieval times. Peoples don't usually tend to let the beef rot when clearing the animal of its hide.
Well Tacitus told the romans that the Germans sustained themselves on dairy products, but that is a story.