True. It's no certainty that they would be able to do it. Just an idea, and something that could be plausible.
Bronze age Americans
- Thread starter Zor
- Start date
True. It's no certainty that they would be able to do it. Just an idea, and something that could be plausible.
Keenir
Banned
advancement in one area does not mean advancement in all areas.
or using bamboo or something...look at hte Chinese.
Yeah, but we're not really talking about bison as we know them. We're talking about domesticated bison. If you can grow potatoes and corn there, you can probably raise a domesticated bison. They'd handle the cold... they did on the northern plains.
Besides, there's always the pampas.
Yes it does. Or rather, it drastically increases the chances of advancement in all areas.
I wonder if we are imagining two different scenarios. The original poster has bison being domesticated after the start of the bronze age... which I thought made less sense than having the POD be more easily domesticable bison, thereby enabling an earlier bronze age. I've been working with that assumption since.
If you've got domesticated bison from several millenia BC, it will most assuredly mean advancement in all areas. If you somehow get to the bronze age sooner and then domesticate bison (how, if they are the same as OTL bison, I don't know) then they probably won't have spread too far, and bronze age civilization may not have spread to the waters yet.
Neutralize Smallpox?
Is there a way to neutralize that one disease in this timeline? It seems like it caused most of the damage, so if we have this early tech boom, maybe we could get an expedition from Brazil to Africa that brought back the infection. It tears through the New World and leaves a nasty legacy, but when the Europeans come, they're immune.
Is there a way to neutralize that one disease in this timeline? It seems like it caused most of the damage, so if we have this early tech boom, maybe we could get an expedition from Brazil to Africa that brought back the infection. It tears through the New World and leaves a nasty legacy, but when the Europeans come, they're immune.
Now explain how Bisonitis keeps it's victim alive for the two to three months needed to get back to Europe???
You can grow potatoes there, because it originated there. The Andeans were the ones that domesticated potatoes. Until the Spaniards spread it, it was the only place in the world was it was eaten.
As for the bison, it's not the cold that's the problem; it's the altitude, and the lack of appropriate grasslands.
As for the pampas, not many people lived there, just some semi-nomads, and no high culture whatsoever. If you look at a map of the Inca Empire at it's greatest extension, you'll be seeing all the regions inhabited by civilized peoples, with the sole exception of the Chibchas in Colombia. The Incas only stopped growing when they run out of people worth conquering, and made very little attempts to settle beyond that, because it was so different form what they were accustomed to.
Keenir
Banned
it would have to repeatedly re-tear through the New World. (ie, I'm not immune to diseases my great-grandparents recovered from)
In OTL, the Polynesians had the most advanced seafaring tools of anyone for several millenia -- yet they did not have elaborate buildings reaching for the sky, they did not have any of the other things we consider "advancement".
ergo, the argument I was making: advancement in one area, does not always translate to other areas.
another example: ancient Athens had democracy, but no steam engines and no electricity, much less equality.
Are they as domesticated as elephants, or as domesticated as corn?
What about the thinner air in the Andes?
Smallpox has an incubation period of about 2 weeks and would take a few days for the symptoms to become noticeable. Plus clothes and blankets that were in close contact with the victim would still remain infectious for several days at least.
Columbus' ships were--on a good day--able to travel ~150 miles a day. With good skill and luck, one can make the journey across the Atlantic in about 3 weeks.
So if some poor slob got infected just before getting on board the ship, he would be dying just as they made landfall. Of course there was a chance he would have infected several other people (who won't show their symptoms for two weeks) and there was always the matter of their clothes and stuff being infectious....
I was suggesting that the development of natural resistances, probably genetic, would be more likely to occur with the larger population. (I'm thinking similar to the defences against malaria that produce, as a side effect, sickle-cell anaemia and Thassalaemia major)
Low-level contact
Is there a way to maintain low-level contact between the old world and the new, allowing for enough disease exchange to neutralize the effects of the invaders? The most ripe spot seems to be between Brazil and Africa, away from the more seafaring Europeans - and going west to east.
I don't know if it's possible without major butterflies arising, including a bronze-age Viking-like tribe in South America. Maybe you can get them to be inspired by the Vikings themselves - or descending from the Vikings in Vinland, moving down the coast as pirates and incorporating whoever they find as new recruits/slaves.
I dunno, doesn't seem likely.
Is there a way to maintain low-level contact between the old world and the new, allowing for enough disease exchange to neutralize the effects of the invaders? The most ripe spot seems to be between Brazil and Africa, away from the more seafaring Europeans - and going west to east.
I don't know if it's possible without major butterflies arising, including a bronze-age Viking-like tribe in South America. Maybe you can get them to be inspired by the Vikings themselves - or descending from the Vikings in Vinland, moving down the coast as pirates and incorporating whoever they find as new recruits/slaves.
I dunno, doesn't seem likely.
Well, for one thing, the Inca did not only live on mountain peaks. I think a lot of people think of Machu Picchu when they think of the Inca, or maybe Lake Titicaca. But Peru, Chile, and Ecuador have coastal regions as well, including (gasp!) some grassland areas.
The pampas, well, it would have been settled eventually if the Peruvian civlizations had both bronze and bison. And the Inca only stopped growing when the Spanish diseases killed their leader, causing civil war, and then the Spanish conquered them.
Polynesians had barely enough resources to support their shipbuilding... of course they didn't have skyscrapers. We're talking about two continents' worth of people here, who have vastly more resources than the Polynesians. And you really can't fault the Greeks for not developing electricity... some things are legitimately far more advanced than others on the tech scale, electricity being one of them. Galleys and sailing vessels are not. Even stone age civilizations had sailing vessels.
To be infectuous, you don't always need to really suffer from the disease or be in a incubation time. Many diseases can be carried on by someone who's infected - but the illness hasn't broken out yet. Especially immune people can thus be responsible for spreadung a disease: they host the virus or bacteria, but are not affected by it nor will they be.
Keenir
Banned
but not all sailing vessels are of equal quality.
advancements in one area (better ships) does not mean equal advancements in other areas (terrain-based developments)
Keenir
Banned
Where did you think the fish came from?
Yes, they had some grassy areas...not enough for the herds (bison belong to that group of animals* which require vastly large numbers for them to thrive)
* = which included the Passenger Pigeon.
I agree...though I disagree that it would've been the Incas settling it. The Incan belief system revolved around mountains -- none of those in the pampas.
the_lyniezian
Banned
In what passes for mountainous regions in Britain, we still have cattle in the valley floors (the hillsides being occupied by sheep). Would bison perhaps have been kept in a similar manner?
Also, since no-one seems to have taken up my suggestion on the peaceful-trade possibility- would it have been feasible or is conflict bound to have occurred?
Max Sinister
Banned
Not more conflicts than in Eurasia when it was on a comparable technology level...
Assuming bison are domesticated to the point that they can function as draft animals, pulling plows, I don't think they will need to be kept in massive herds. We're not talking about the bison we know anymore, but something much more similar to domestic cattle.Where did you think the fish came from?
Yes, they had some grassy areas...not enough for the herds (bison belong to that group of animals* which require vastly large numbers for them to thrive)
* = which included the Passenger Pigeon.
I didn't say the Inca would, I said "if the Peruvian civlizations had both bronze and bison" it would happen. I have no idea how it would spread. And besides, there wouldn't be any Inca if bison were domesticated early on... they'd be butterflied.