Brittians reaction to Spain joining the axis

"Prime Minister Churchill, what should we do about Spain and Portugal joining the Axis Powers?"

"Invade them President Roosevelt, WE SHALL INVADE THEIR BEACHES!"
 
Seize the Azores and the Canary Islands before Portugal / Spain / Germany can reinforce them so that they cant be used as sub / anti-shipping bases

Mainland ports will give the KM a little bit of a boost and obviously Gibraltar will fall (hopefully after a long seige - something better than the fall of Singapore please)
 
Head scratching probably before scooping up all the shipping and colonies. What on earth did the two countries have to gain balanced against the loss of food, credit and fuel imports, the colonies are probably worthless apart from prestige.

A lot of people are going to go hungry the Axis didnt have any spare food, money or fuel. Gaining Gibraltar will be a propaganda coup for Hitler and there will be a few more thousand troops to add to the meat grinder in the east but thats it. MI6 and SOE would be sending lots of guns and gold to the large numbers of Republicans still in the countryside who would love Civil War part 2 to start.
 
"We will teach them the value of eating just vegetables!"

Fucking Churchill was a psychopath. Nukes were the humane option compared to the shit he had in mind.
 
Royal Marines landing on the various Atlantic Islands seems the logical first step. Aside from that, there is little that could be done in the short term. Torch might have been an invasion of Iberia instead of North Africa (well maybe Morocco too).
 
the loss of Gibralitar and the race to Tangier

With the help of the Nazis the Spanish would take Gibraltar and a road race by Germany to control the southern half of the straights at Tangier would put the Med in complete control of the Axis power. With the Mediterranean Sea sealed off in the west and the Italians in charge in Ethiopia in the east the British would be hard pressed to support any activity in the Med. Montgomery would be surrendering or taking a sub back to Great Britain with in 6 months of those two objectives being met.:eek:
 

TFSmith121

Banned
There's this thing called the Suez Canal...

With the help of the Nazis the Spanish would take Gibraltar and a road race by Germany to control the southern half of the straights at Tangier would put the Med in complete control of the Axis power. With the Mediterranean Sea sealed off in the west and the Italians in charge in Ethiopia in the east the British would be hard pressed to support any activity in the Med. Montgomery would be surrendering or taking a sub back to Great Britain with in 6 months of those two objectives being met.:eek:

There's this thing called the Suez Canal...

There's also the minor issue of where Spain was importing most of its POL and much of its food from in 1940-41.

There's also the fact the British had planned for and were militarily capable of occupying the Azores, and then conquering the Canaries and occupying the rest of Macronesia in the event the Spanish closed the Strait of Gibraltar.

And they were capable of landing in French Morrocco by 1942, as TORCH makes clear.

But other than that, it's a war winner.:rolleyes:

Best,
 
With the help of the Nazis the Spanish would take Gibraltar and a road race by Germany to control the southern half of the straights at Tangier would put the Med in complete control of the Axis power. With the Mediterranean Sea sealed off in the west and the Italians in charge in Ethiopia in the east the British would be hard pressed to support any activity in the Med. Montgomery would be surrendering or taking a sub back to Great Britain with in 6 months of those two objectives being met.:eek:

The ability of the Axis to take Gibralter was...doubtful, to say the least. And th British shipped most of the supplies in North Africa through the Suez Canal anyway, the Mediterranean was too dangerous.
 
what stands out would be location of u-boat base(s) in Spain not France.

the RAF unit that attacked u-boats in Bay of Biscay (the southernmost part) was based at Gibraltar, that option would not be there.

might have u-boat bases at Vigo and Gibraltar(?), IIRC Germany also requested at least docking at Canary Islands and Spanish Guinea (Equatorial Guinea)
 

Paul MacQ

Donor
The ability of the Axis to take Gibralter was...doubtful, to say the least. And th British shipped most of the supplies in North Africa through the Suez Canal anyway, the Mediterranean was too dangerous.

I would check maps of Gibraltar.

Gibraltar has no high angle artillery. There is several places that large Howitzers can be placed that are unreachable with British defenses. These would have no problems smashing the roofs of the likes of water cisterns at "Nuns Well" and others

The harbor is also in short Range from Spanish Lands. The Ability of British holding Gibraltar is Zero. As the Spanish turn off the water. It will be Days if a couple of weeks at most.

If the Spain and Portugal join the Axis. do you think there would be warning and would reinforcements not already be on the Atlantic Island ?

Maybe the first Knowledge of Spain joining is a Message that German Ju52s are landing in Tangier after leaving South Western Spain. ?

Then things mentioned like Spain going hungry after the devastation of the Civil war and lack of fuel do take there toll.

Malta would be hard too hold if this Happens before the first serous reinforcement of Malta October-November 1940.

Spain and Portugal have very little to gain. And much to lose.
 
There's also the fact the British had planned for and were militarily capable of occupying the Azores, and then conquering the Canaries and occupying the rest of Macronesia in the event the Spanish closed the Strait of Gibraltar.

And they were capable of landing in French Morrocco by 1942, as TORCH makes clear.

The ability of the Axis to take Gibralter was...doubtful, to say the least. And th British shipped most of the supplies in North Africa through the Suez Canal anyway, the Mediterranean was too dangerous.

never seen any serious questioning of whether Gibraltar could be taken or rendered inoperable, have seen a LOT of question as to its worth to the Axis.

the whole distraction of occupying dozens of islands in Macaronesia? building facilities or upgrading? keeping a watchful eye against spies and lurking u-boats? it seems the Axis would welcome Great Britain in that position?
 
what stands out would be location of u-boat base(s) in Spain not France.

the RAF unit that attacked u-boats in Bay of Biscay (the southernmost part) was based at Gibraltar, that option would not be there.

might have u-boat bases at Vigo and Gibraltar(?), IIRC Germany also requested at least docking at Canary Islands and Spanish Guinea (Equatorial Guinea)

Problem is the Spanish would be Swapping Gibraltar for those other places

While The British might not be able to hold onto Gibralter - Spain equally could not hold on to any of its overseas possessions.

So those same Maritime Aircraft would instead be flying from those other places and they would not be used for U-Boat basing.
 
Problem is the Spanish would be Swapping Gibraltar for those other places

While The British might not be able to hold onto Gibralter - Spain equally could not hold on to any of its overseas possessions.

So those same Maritime Aircraft would instead be flying from those other places and they would not be used for U-Boat basing.

the RN had their forces concentrated at Gibraltar and years (to say the least) of operating from there.

if dispersed over all the islands of the Canaries (and the Azores) it would take a period of time to secure and build? presume a somewhat greater number of troops to garrison?

they are pretty far afield to strike at Vigo(my scenario, there may be better sites on Spain's northern coast) much further than Gibraltar to Bay of Biscay.
 
I would check maps of Gibraltar.

Gibraltar has no high angle artillery. There is several places that large Howitzers can be placed that are unreachable with British defenses. These would have no problems smashing the roofs of the likes of water cisterns at "Nuns Well" and others

Plenty of Artillery here

shipsnmole.jpg


Not that it could be held indefinately - I agree
 
The ability of the Axis to take Gibralter was...doubtful, to say the least. And th British shipped most of the supplies in North Africa through the Suez Canal anyway, the Mediterranean was too dangerous.
Taking Gibraltar would be possible, but they cannot launch direct attacks. And, logistical issues such as distances, fuel, troops and railways along with attacks by separatist and republican partisans on the German and Spanish troops make the possibility less likely. Of course, any 'Spain joins the Axis' thread has already mentioned the economic and supply issues of Franco's Spain plus the devastation of the previous civil war and guerillas. Not to mention Spain being more of a liability in the long term [after Hitler invades the Soviet Union].
 
the RN had their forces concentrated at Gibraltar and years (to say the least) of operating from there.

if dispersed over all the islands of the Canaries (and the Azores) it would take a period of time to secure and build? presume a somewhat greater number of troops to garrison?

they are pretty far afield to strike at Vigo(my scenario, there may be better sites on Spain's northern coast) much further than Gibraltar to Bay of Biscay.

Its true Gibraltar was a major base for that part of the world - not as important as Singapore or Alex but still very useful.

The RN managed to operate out of other locations at short notice during the war so I cannot see the Azores presenting that large an obstacle.
 
Wonder what Churchill's reaction will be when he is informed that Portugal has terminated the Treaty of Windsor.

Set up Salazar & the sizable Brit friendly portion of the Portuguese government in the Azores. That was Salazars plan in 1941.

And of course there is all the following.

Head scratching probably before scooping up all the shipping and colonies. What on earth did the two countries have to gain balanced against the loss of food, credit and fuel imports, the colonies are probably worthless apart from prestige.

A lot of people are going to go hungry the Axis didnt have any spare food, money or fuel. Gaining Gibraltar will be a propaganda coup for Hitler and there will be a few more thousand troops to add to the meat grinder in the east but thats it. MI6 and SOE would be sending lots of guns and gold to the large numbers of Republicans still in the countryside who would love Civil War part 2 to start.

Royal Marines landing on the various Atlantic Islands seems the logical first step. Aside from that, there is little that could be done in the short term. Torch might have been an invasion of Iberia instead of North Africa (well maybe Morocco too).

USN had a up to date plan for occupying the Azores. Once version was to preserve Portuguese 'Nuetrality' the same way the USN replaced the Brits in Iceland in March 1941.

Iberia would be a interesting location for a second front in 1942. The Allies have the mobility advantage as they can shift about easily by sea, while the Axis are stuck with Spains worn and sparse rail roads and underdeveloped automotive roads. Beyond thats its sort of a stratigic dead end once you have some ports and a enclave. Put a Allied army of eight or nine divisions ashore somewhere and let the Germans ponder Napoleons experience supporting the 'Intrusive King'. later when Allied armies march through France the Germans have the opportunity to show how fast they can retreat from Madrid or Cordoba. Later in 1945 a Spanish army can join in crossing the Rhine.
 
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